Listen To The Podcast

We talked with Nancy about:

• Unlearning and learning how to lead in today’s virtual workplace
• Opening space for collaboration to increase opportunities for team growth and cultural shifts
• Leading recruitment from true, authentic values that are reflected by the organization as a whole

About Nancy Lyons:

CEO and founder of Clockwork Interactive, self-proclaimed rebel, and digital space leader, Nancy Lyons wants leaders to embrace being one to many and not shy away from picking up the phone to connect with their employees. Moving into the future, she sees huge opportunities for building and reinforcing company culture by embracing the digital workplace with proactive rather than reactive changes.

Featured Resources 

• Nancy Lyon's Linkedin
• Nancy Lyon's Website
• Work Like a Boss by Nancy Lyons
• Clockwork Website
• Clockwork LinkedIn
  

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong:
All right. Well, Nancy, thanks so much for joining us today. I’m very excited to hear from you. It was so funny actually. So just an introduction story. Our team, a lot of them are word nerds, and I remember we were first kind of googling, learning a little bit about you, and I think on the front of your website it says something weirdo, I don't know if it's certified weirdo or whatever, but we loved it. And I think what was so cool is it's just embracing that you like to nerd out, like to enjoy different things, like to get in deep topics. And so it resonated, right? And even the name of Clockwork, the company you founded, it's got a spin on it. And I'm so excited to hear from you and that kind of originality and to be able to pull that out a little bit more. So why don't we start with Clockwork? How did it get going? I mean, what was the spark for it to be able to pull out that kind of work and what you do around culture? 

Nancy Lyons:
Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. I appreciate having the opportunity to visit with you today. Clockwork actually started because we had started another company. So my business partners had started another company and that company was acquired. But we had been building websites since 1995, and that company actually started as an internet service provider. And this was before the big telcos came in to monopolize the space. And so there was actually room for small businesses and entrepreneurs to start up in the internet space. So we were offering internet services to end users and then started building websites. And then that company was acquired. And I think the whole purpose of that acquisition was to add digital services to a larger enterprise. And I think we all know what happens in acquisitions, and you could make it that much more complex by factoring in the idea that this happened when the internet was not well understood and was not yet entirely mainstream. 

Nancy:
And so the value of the business they had acquired was not really understood or shared by all, the reality of it wasn't shared by everybody. And so it made for a really sort of tense situation. And so we decided we wanted to leave and start over, not a startup, but a start over. And we had learned so many lessons and the industry had come such a long way in such a short amount of time that we decided it was an ideal time for us to open our new shop and really reflect everything we had learned through all the trials and experiments that we had done in the very early days of the internet. So we started Clockwork in 2002. And we had some great clients that carried over from our last story that helped us bootstrap it. And it was really just a handful of us in our basements at first, and then we moved into an office space. And I wish I could tell a more exciting story than that. I think we just saw that there was this tremendous need for leadership in the digital space when it was so murky to navigate for anybody that needed it. 

Lauren:
Yes. And talk about digital space right now, right? We're all hyper-digital post-COVID. I think we'd be fools to think it's gonna totally return to how it was. But at least if you look at trends in hiring, right? I mean, remote first is a leading trend and people like that, right? And it changes the culture. And I love to hear, I mean, you've been building that, the world of the internet and kind of why culture and what are you seeing today with company cultures and being hyper-digital? 

Nancy:
Sure. Well, I'd like to share for the record that I think the internet changed everything a long time ago. And so the reason that I got into the space where I find myself talking about culture and leadership in the context of culture and hyper-digital cultures is because we saw immediately how the internet was gonna change—not only industry but the landscape in which industry functioned, right? And so I started talking about the impact of the internet and internet thinking on workplace culture from the very beginning. And in fact, I have an interview in a magazine, I don't remember the name of the magazine but from the ‘90s, when I had no idea what I was doing. And they said, what do you want your legacy to be? And I said, it's not gonna be websites because anybody can make a website, but it's definitely gonna be my voice and the impact that I can have in moving the needle toward the future of work. Because I think people have to, especially leadership, have to let go of their ideas, and the security they have in this idea that the way it's always been is the way it should be. 

Lauren:
Yes. Can you talk and or maybe even share some examples for how you are seeing culture played out in a virtual environment, built out in a way that it transcends the physical space? 

Nancy:
Well, I think, again, I think that's something that most organizations are struggling with large and small. I mean, even my company, and I just said I've been talking about this since the ‘90s, struggle with it because we just ended up having a staff that really preferred to be together. We've always been hybrid, we've always had remote options, but on most days, the majority of the staff was in the office. They had the option of being wherever. And in fact, at one point I expanded and added another little campus and I said if people would just go home, we wouldn't have to get more office space. But they were sort of on top of each other. The pandemic forced the opposite and our folks who had always had flexibility were suddenly having to adapt to these ways of working, even though that option had always been on the menu. 

Nancy:
I think what we see a lot is leadership is attached to the way things have always been because that's how they know how to lead. That's what they're used to. That's what they feel control over. And what they observe validates their assumptions, right? When they are in spaces and they see these impromptu, sporadic conversations or connections between people, it validates what they know about physical space. The truth of the matter is those sorts of exchanges can still happen, but people have to take the initiative to make them happen. So what I find in terms of my own speaking is it's really about reminding the individual of their own agency or power in the context of culture and their actions and their micro actions. And that means everything from saying, Hey, are you okay? 

Nancy:
In the middle of a Zoom or chatting, sending somebody a direct message in the middle of a Zoom call or whatever it is to have these momentary connections that fulfill a sort of that energetic requirement of culture. And I think we find ourselves talking about individual responsibility and the lack of judgment. Now we have a change practice inside of Clockwork so we're doing it, we're having these conversations on a systemic level. And I would say it's as much about unlearning as it is about learning. We have to sort of unlearn patterns and behaviors that force these systems to be the single truth. And we have to have the gumption or the courage to want to recreate systems, which when we're thinking about it seems like it should be easy, but in practice it's that much harder. 

Lauren:
Yes. I love how you are helping coach CEOs and C-suite teams to help to change those patterns, either in the way they're communicating or the systems they're deploying to help make sure the culture is still alive and well even if there isn't a virtual environment. 

Nancy:
Right. I think what we're finding is very frank, very frequent conversations, and then a real audit of messaging is critical. And then a communications plan; the thing that I tell people all the time is leadership is just repeating yourself over and over and over again. Because I think it takes a while for people to believe the change. And it takes a while for them to integrate change and even a healthy response to change into their thinking. And I also think including them in the process of getting there is really important because they're hoping for it. I haven't spoken to a single human being who didn't welcome an absence of a commute, who didn't welcome more time with their family, who wasn't happy about not having to worry about what to wear, at least from here down. I think everybody welcomed the decrease in stress around really trivial issues. But stressful issues all the same. And I think including people in the process so everybody can get past their sort of innate desire to protect their routines and just explore what's possible and the truth of the meaning behind those possibilities and the opportunities behind those possibilities. So I think it's about talking through them, exploring the data, and including the broader staff in the actual movement. 

Lauren:
Yes. And taking that leadership initiative to be inclusive, repetitive. And it sounds like you were saying earlier in the office, you can observe the side conversations, but it's being intentional about having those side conversations or reaching out and such, especially in a leadership role. 

Nancy:
Mm-hmm. 

Lauren:
What about for middle management? Are there things you think middle managers can do? Cause that's such a tough position to be in, right? I mean, you've got one person here reporting to another person here you're trying to port to and you're trying to work on client success. And are there things you see managers can do that do require a little bit more potential hand holding coaching leadership when we're not in that kind of same training realm? 

Nancy:
Mm-hmm. What I see a lot from middle managers is this need to replace whatever dynamic they experienced in person with one-on-ones. So suddenly their schedules get eaten alive by trying to have these personal lengthy meetings with their teams. And I actually think one of the things I try to recommend more often than not is just really opening those conversations up because it gives the air of transparency. It's more opportunity for people to get together in a group setting, whether it be virtual or in person or hybrid and really start to understand how the others think and create more opportunities for collaboration or, I mean, listen, I don't think we're fooling ourselves if I even so much as suggest that business can be democratic. 

Nancy:
But I do think somebody's gotta be responsible. Somebody's gotta be the buck stops here. But I do think really making space to hear how people are working through some of these new challenges, there's a knowledge sharing aspect to those group conversations. There's a collaborative planning aspect. I think there's an opportunity to not be reactive, which is what we've been for the last three years, just reactive. And really start to be proactive and plan for what I believe is inevitable, and that's future disruption. If middle managers use opportunities to be less one to one and more one to many and really open up more space for collaboration and be planful I just think there's huge opportunity for growth in the teams. There's huge opportunity for shifts in the cultural energy. I think people feel more seen and valued. I just think the emotional response to that as an opportunity is tremendous. 

Lauren:
Yeah. Not to mention the buy-in as you were sharing earlier. It's that idea of, well, it goes back to the leadership piece of it too, right? The repetitiveness of it, but then also having people buy into what we're trying to accomplish as a team. So fascinating. Are there tools that you see helping to assist with this? I mean, there's Slack and there's Asana, and there's email and there's all these kinds of things. Is there any technology that you feel helps to either incentivize or helps with communications too? 

Nancy:
Yeah, I mean, let's say there's no shortage of technology right now. I mean, I certainly see there's a tool for everything. In my organization alone, I mean, there must be 10 or 12 platforms that we're reliant on right now from Miro and its virtual post-it notes to Slack, which we can't function without, to Confluence, which is where we share sort of lengthier data and Trello. I think there's tools that are a little more lofty, some sort of design thinking to map out some of the conclusions or the experiments that we agreed to. So I think making sure that everybody's heard and everybody has an opportunity to participate in how we make actual decisions and make actual evolution or innovate, I think some processes are important, whether they're a digital tool and we're doing it asynchronously, or whether it's a process or a methodology or an approach. And we're doing it synchronously. And to be quite honest with you, I am a big fan of the good old-fashioned spontaneous phone call. 

Lauren:
Yes, I know. We need more of that. I feel like it's been a lost art. 

Nancy:
We do. Yeah, we do. I actually beg people sometimes to just pick up the phone. And in my keynotes recently, I've just been saying to people, what's innovative? Getting to talk to a person. Totally innovative. Oh, true. 

Lauren:
Yes. 

Nancy:
Right. And what do we all want? It doesn't matter how comfortable you are with technology, how long you've been using it. We've all had those moments like an airline reservation or something where we hit a digital brick wall and wouldn't it be nice to just talk to somebody? I think that shows in most contexts, and especially as we're exploring how to improve our cultures and adapt to what's in front of us. 

Lauren:
Oh my, this is so true. It's easy to hide behind that technology wall. So just that extra little effort to pick up the phone can feel like a big leap perhaps. Okay. So we've talked about internal communications, right? C-suite, middle management, things we can do there, technology for implementation. What about even before the hire or putting out that energy about what it's like as a culture, as a company culture, before someone would be hired to be able to really to attract the right talent to join the team. What kind of conversations are you having around that? 

Nancy:
Yeah. I think they're multi-layered. I'm a big believer that your values have to be true or real and not aspirational or marketing speak. The expectation is that any recruitment effort would lead with values so people see themselves in those values. I ask a lot of audiences when I'm talking to them, like how many of you know your organizational values? And it is always shocking to me how few people do. So leading with values is of critical importance I think. I'm also a big believer in peer-based hiring because I think it gives people a real glimpse in. We have a panel of their peers in the discipline, outside of the discipline, and then there's a leadership conversation. And I think it gives people a view into how we work, how we respect each other, how we give each other space, what we value as individuals and how that is valued by the broader team. And so I do think that a process that's fair, that's not too lengthy but is substantive, feels like there's been an investment on both sides and includes an actual view into the humans you would work with, whether it's the team, the department, the division, what have you. But again, the values play a giant role in hiring strategy, and I think most organizations forget that. 

Lauren:
That's so true. And it's gotta be intrinsic. So like you said, this authentic piece of it, what about just putting my marketing hat on, cause I know we're having these conversations about communicating culture and reinforcing culture, at least on social media. I've seen, especially with bigger organizations, that for part of the onboarding process, there's sometimes even a culture handbook or culture training video or something that's entertaining but it's kind of an introduction to things that make the company unique. Are you seeing that kind of thing? Or is that more you feel like a new hire will just kind of go through a 90-day cycle and start to feel and live and breathe it? Or what are you seeing companies do as they're introducing the company culture so it can be lived out and carried on? 

Nancy:
Yeah, I think it's all of the above. I think there are folks who have such a hands-on onboarding process that I think the hope is that real relationships will develop in those first 90 days. I know for us, we always send a welcome package to the new person's home before they start. What is also really interesting, and I'm only saying this for the first time now, is that it’s an organic social media opportunity because almost everybody takes a picture of it and puts it someplace. It's just got like a hoodie and a notebook and their laptop and a glass with some swag so it's not anything enormous but there's some stickers, nothing extravagant but they immediately get a sense of sometimes the playfulness of the organization. 

Nancy:
Sometimes I talk about having a culture of care, and they sense that pretty immediately. I absolutely think that oftentimes when we think about it, like, what can we do that's entertaining, that gives people a sense of the voice and the tone, we're trying too hard. And I also think we overinvest in those moments and production values; it's sort of like social media. You can invest a lot in a video and it's not gonna have any more impact than the actual experience or a raw moment or a candid shot. So for us I would say it's different every time except for that welcome package. 

Lauren:
That's fair. That's absolutely fair. I know we tell that to folks too. Cause it's like, do we need to do a full production? I'm like, there is a place for that, but there is also a huge place for authenticity and the non-perfect sort of look and feel of everything. So it's a balance. 

Nancy:
Absolutely. 

Lauren:
Well, we are about at time here. Any other thoughts? I know you've got a book and other resources, places that you think might be interesting for folks to learn more about your work or other just helpful sources of information around company culture. 

Nancy:
I do have a book. If you don't mind, I'll plug it real quick. 

Lauren:
Let's talk about it. We’ll put up a link there. 

Nancy:
Okay. Work Like A Boss is an interesting book because it's not written for leadership. I think every business book you read is written for managers, leaders, what have you, right? Work Like A Boss is written for everybody else. And it's really reminding people that they have agency and that the secret to a healthy work culture is approaching work without judgment of other people. We have this tendency to wanna be comfortable, and the way in which we are most comfortable is by really only accepting or being open to people around us that are like us. Because the more similar you are to me, the less tension that creates, the more comfortable I am. And this book actually opens up the idea that we have power to shift how work feels. And culture is really that thing. It's not the gimmicks, it's not the perks. 

Nancy:
We mix up things like free lunches and sodas with perks. And it really is that palpable energy. You know it when you feel it and it suggests safety and it suggests openness and some amount of purpose. We create it for each other. And one person can change, can make or break an entire work experience. And in this book, I talk about how fear plays into why we act the way we do at work sometimes and how kindness is super easy and it's very different from nice. And how all of this begins with owning your own baggage. Like really recognizing sometimes I'm passive aggressive and this is what I can do to change that. Because it doesn't make other people feel good. So the book has a little bit of tough love in it. 

Nancy:
It's a super accessible book. It's kind of fun to read. And I think that it's eye-opening because we have all been trained in the ways of work. I also call that the cult of work. And right now, the situation with COVID forced us to react differently, to respond differently. And it continues to sort of call on us to show up differently. It's not just virtual or physical. There's a lot of nuance to it. And each one of us has a responsibility to show up strong and creatively for it. 

Lauren:
So true. So well said too. So I'm assuming it's on Amazon.

Nancy:
Any place you would buy your book, all you have to do is check it out. It's there. 

Lauren:
I've added it to my reading list here. 

Nancy:
Excellent. 

Lauren:
Thank you. I feel like we could just keep this going. We could go for a lot longer. I just really enjoy hearing about different approaches to work and culture and onboarding and authenticity and leadership training, all kinds of pieces. So I also really loved to hear a little bit about the book. And it's not just about, like you said, leadership, C-suite or management or what have you, but it's this intrinsic idea of empowerment across the board.

Lauren:
Well, thank you again for your time and for sharing a little bit more about what you do and bring to the table. I'm excited for others to hear more and get that book.

Nancy:
Thanks a lot. It was a great conversation. I appreciate you having me.