We talked with Jennifer Goldman about:

• How she helps create healthy businesses through operations, connecting health to employee satisfaction and community impact
• The processes of organizing operational priorities — from visualizing the vision to breaking down goals into actionable steps with team involvement 
• Why successful implementation requires both digital tracking tools and visual reminders, with a focus on celebrating wins and communicating the “why” behind changes

About Jennifer Goldman:

Jennifer Goldman, founder of My Virtual COO, transforms businesses through improved operations. She began her career overhauling operational processes before transitioning to consulting, driven by seeing how healthy businesses create positive ripple effects. In this episode of On Purpose, Jennifer explains her approach to organizing operational priorities: documenting everything, visualizing goals, and involving team members in planning. She works with companies seeking to transform their operations through techniques that accelerate change, gain buy-in, and allow businesses to grow while simultaneously improving. Jennifer emphasizes the importance of communicating the “why” behind initiatives and celebrating wins to create lasting organizational change.

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‍Featured Resources 

• My Virtual COO website
• Jennifer Goldman on LinkedIn
• My Virtual COO contact form

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Full Audio Transcript:

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00:00:00 - 00:08:07

Lauren Hong

All right, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us.

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00:08:09 - 00:12:11

Jennifer Goldman

I'm so happy to be here. You know I love talking with you. So this will be fun.

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00:12:11 - 00:37:02

Lauren Hong

Goes two ways. You all are in for a treat. So, Jennifer Goldman, she runs My Virtual COO and is based on the East Coast. So for those of you who are in that neck of the woods, make sure to give her a shout out. So, my goodness, you have incredible experience. I should also just say we met at the Dimensional Fund’s conference this past fall.

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00:37:04 - 00:51:02

Lauren Hong

It was really fun to share the stage with you there and just to hear your wisdom. So many good things. So anyways, I don't want to steal your thunder so I'm going to pass it over to you and let you share a little bit more about your background. And what you do.

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00:51:04 - 01:12:09

Jennifer Goldman

Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to say I was happy to meet you there too, because the energy I felt, we had good energy there. And I think that's why we're talking again today. So, let's see, where do we start? Buffalo Bills fan. I'm from Buffalo, New York. Love it. I can say that in an upswing year.

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01:12:11 - 01:45:25

Jennifer Goldman

I grew up in Buffalo. Went to school out there, and the story line is, after working for a bunch of small businesses outside of Buffalo and my campus, and being a real young person full of energy and overhauling ops and processes and then going to work corporate and doing that again, I ended up in my late 20s switching to consulting.

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01:45:27 - 02:08:26

Jennifer Goldman

I had to move to Boston, Massachusetts, because of the economy at the time and also I wanted to really spread my wings, really go to some bigger companies. So yeah, that's the backstory. And I'm not going to say how many years but it's several, several years later and I’m still doing this.

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02:08:29 - 02:14:25

Jennifer Goldman

I moved to Maryland and then back to Boston because it doesn't matter where you are. It’s your impact.

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02:14:28 - 02:34:15

Lauren Hong

I love it. So I feel like it takes a special person to really be able to appreciate operations, not just appreciate but to be able to have the patience to get into the nuances, and then also the ability to be able to work with people to figure out how you orchestrate everything you need to work on.

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02:34:16 - 02:46:24

Lauren Hong

So talk with us a little bit about what drives you as you got into the space and started working with different organizations and what have you. What was the driver for you to get deeper and deeper into the work you're doing today?

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02:46:26 - 03:10:27

Jennifer Goldman

Yeah, this is probably going to throw newbies for a loop. The driver was seeing the impact of healthy business. So let me peel that back a little bit. Being in enough businesses watching and my parents by day were educators but by night how to do other business. And seeing the choices you had.

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03:10:27 - 03:29:27

Jennifer Goldman

If you're part of a healthy business, you have choices in your career, you have choices on what you can learn. You're not strapped down by finances as much. Maybe you're not making as much as you'd like but you're certainly feeling that you're in a stable place. I saw how wonderful that was, and for some reason I'm very intuitive and empathic.

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03:30:04 - 03:48:09

Jennifer Goldman

So I picked up on that fact and I thought, oh my gosh. And then going into businesses that were not healthy. I was like, this is destroying not only a business and the community but the employees, who now they don't have choices, right? And then the community doesn't get to benefit.

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03:48:11 - 04:13:13

Jennifer Goldman

So I kind of just kind of connected the dots. That's what operations people do. And just said, okay, healthy business, healthy employees, healthy lives, healthy families, healthy community. And that's all. That's what drove me. It was all about that, and it still is today. I very often get asked why don't you work with bigger businesses? Because we usually only work with businesses under 50, 75 employees.

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04:13:13 - 04:27:03

Jennifer Goldman

And I say, because that's the lifeblood of a community. And they usually give it forward a lot to communities that need it. So, yeah, that's kind of the answer. A long answer to a short question.

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04:27:06 - 04:44:24

Lauren Hong

I love that, especially the connecting, connecting the dots to community — that's part of our mission statement, our vision statement. Well, vision in particular, we really lean on community but it impacts how we operate on a day to day.

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04:44:24 - 05:11:05

Jennifer Goldman

It gives you a purpose, right? You know this running a business, on certain days you can lose your way and as an owner, I always say this too, I can lose my way. Why am I doing this? Why am I working so hard? And if you don't have that bigger purpose, it just doesn't feel as fulfilling.

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05:11:05 - 05:16:04

Jennifer Goldman

And frankly, then it's not for anybody on the team. They're like, what am I doing here? You know what I mean?

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05:16:04 - 05:46:16

Lauren Hong

It's so, so true. So you talked about connecting the dots of operations, right? And you can put that on so many different levels, right? From a strategy level, from actual operations implementation to the tactical nuances. And so I think one of the hard things, at least in what I see, is being able to get people to rally around what kind of key goals and priorities they should be focusing on.

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05:46:19 - 06:09:00

Lauren Hong

When you work with teams, how do you lead those conversations if it's around what change do we need to make internally? Do you have one-on-one conversations with just the C-suite? Do you go to department heads? How boots on ground are you getting? I'd love to hear a little bit more about setting the stage, coming into a company, about what are operational priorities as a business.

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06:09:02 - 06:32:06

Jennifer Goldman

Well, first off, you always have to ground the visionary. So, you've got to get out of their brain all that swirl. And I mean it literally is like a little tornado of thoughts. So what we do is we document and visualize everything. So when they're talking, we're writing. And we know and you know there is therapy in writing it yourself.

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06:32:14 - 06:54:09

Jennifer Goldman

But there's a reason they haven't written it. Maybe it's fear of seeing it or writing. Maybe it's that their brain is going too fast. Certainly in ADHD brain, right? They're all over the place. So we take it, we write it, and we start to organize it. And that kind of grounds on the vision for if you're going to use like, I know we can use video and traction, whatever words we use, right?

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06:54:09 - 07:18:10

Jennifer Goldman

We got the vision. Then we have some of the goals to get to the vision because vision is really big right now. Then from the goals, then we'll start to write out, okay, some of the pieces to get to those goals. And that's when we start to bring in more people. So it's not that we don't believe in one-on-one but we believe in as much transparency as possible.

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07:18:10 - 07:36:07

Jennifer Goldman

And this is my bias, right? I didn't like being a part of a company. I could have been the youngest person there and believe me, I can tell stories about being 19 years old and doing processes around 250 people. I mean, I was young, and yet if I didn't understand the bigger picture, I wasn't going to give it my all.

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07:36:10 - 07:51:17

Jennifer Goldman

So we pull the whole team in together, and then we start to say, okay, of the goals, what are the pieces? What do we have to do in the finance area? What do we have to do in the process area? What do you have to do in systems? What do you have to do with people? There's very defined parts of a business.

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07:51:19 - 07:52:24

Lauren Hong

Right, right.

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07:52:26 - 08:12:23

Jennifer Goldman

And so naturally by actually writing it out and kind of tying it in, I'm going to say it starts to fall into place. The sequencing is the secret sauce. But that's the end part. It's just getting it there on paper. And that's when people start to say, I have an interest in this.

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08:13:00 - 08:14:27

Jennifer Goldman

Can I take it on?

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08:15:00 - 08:37:08

Lauren Hong

I love that. I think sometimes when folks think about operations, I immediately go to the CRM, right? How are we going to operationalize this and transact whatever it is? And I feel like in a real, true CEO, a role like it is across the company, it's a bit like job descriptions, organization, organizational structure.

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08:37:08 - 08:58:28

Lauren Hong

I mean priorities across departments. There's so many pieces. So once you've kind of pulled those together, you mentioned different tools and talking with different folks. How are you then prioritizing them? And then here's a two-part question: one, how do you prioritize them? And two, how do you roll it out? 

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08:58:28 - 09:10:26

Lauren Hong

You have to roll it out. So it's not just like hanging out, here's our plan and it's going to go on the shelf kind of thing. We forget to look at it and we keep being crazy. So priorities.

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09:10:26 - 09:36:13

Jennifer Goldman

So first, the secret sauce of sequencing. I'm not quite sure I have a method that can be copied. That's how the brain thinks. And let me come back to that because there's a second thing. When you write things out, people will actually start doing some of the actions without even being given permission.

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09:36:16 - 09:47:19

Jennifer Goldman

If something hits the gut, it's a micro win. And they're like, yeah, love it, understand it, run with it, or we find out when we get back there it's already a check on the list of being done.

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09:47:19 - 09:48:24

Lauren Hong

Quick win.

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09:48:27 - 10:11:26

Jennifer Goldman

Yeah, exactly. So coming back to the sequencing. So a couple things. One is burnout. You have to be careful, right? So we never try to tie in three major initiatives in the same quarter. And by major I mean the entire team is involved. And it's a heavy lift and it's expensive. We look at all of those pieces.

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10:12:03 - 10:33:28

Jennifer Goldman

So we try to do the micros with the big. The second thing is we try to give equal opportunity to every division of the company. So let's just use you and me. I'm operations. You're all things marketing, right? You can't just do an operations project and leave marketing alone. You have to be doing both.

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10:33:28 - 11:26

Jennifer Goldman

So we might say big project in operations because right now we need to free up time. A smaller project in marketing to keep things rolling along and good for business development. So now when you have capacity, you can use it with the new business coming in the door. So it is a look and feel of, like I said, giving equal opportunity across all divisions but also thinking ahead.

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11:28 - 11:25:28

Jennifer Goldman

And again, what's our goal? What's our goal for the year? Is our goal to increase revenue by X? Is it to alleviate the C-suite of 50% of their duties? Because without that they can't develop more business. What is that? And then we work back from that and line everything up. It's like essentialism, like Greg McKeown.

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11:25:28 - 11:31:16

Jennifer Goldman

Like what you're doing today. Does it tie into the goal? Can you see the goal line and…

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11:31:16 - 11:47:17

Lauren Hong

… connect the dots? I love that. We even see that as nuances like the social media post that goes out. Can you connect it back to the business strategy? Where is it aligned and why are we putting our effort there so there's a dot that all connects back even to the smallest pieces so we're aligned with marketing or what have you?

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11:47:20 - 12:11:06

Lauren Hong

I appreciate what you're saying of being able to stagger things accordingly against priority, involving different teams as needed. I especially appreciate it because for us, when we see teams grow, usually if it's a smaller team, maybe a dozen people, we're directly often working with a person in an ops role.

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12:11:08 - 12:31:01

Lauren Hong

But then as the company gets bigger, I mean, fast-forward to 150-plus employees, we're usually directly communicating with the CEO for what's going on because the operations initiatives go across the company. But if you keep the brand consistency, then it goes across the company with the training. It's like a hand in glove kind of thing.

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12:31:03 - 12:49:16

Lauren Hong

So I appreciate the way you're sharing how you roll things out. So how do you keep people on track? Do you use data visualization tools? Do y have monthly check-ins? Because you feel like you have to hear that message again. And it's like a radio ad, if you hear it again and again and again, you have to get the brain share, right?

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12:49:16 - 12:54:04

Lauren Hong

You have to buy the brain share. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about that.

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12:54:06 - 13:15:02

Jennifer Goldman

How do you keep it front and center for action? So, I'll give you the electronic way and then I'll give you a physical way because there's all sorts of ways to communicate and this falls into your bailiwick because to me, marketing is communications, right? You're basically selling everyone on action, okay?

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13:15:03 - 13:33:26

Jennifer Goldman

That's what change is. And you're not selling it in a bad way. You're selling it with purpose and with direction. Deliberate. The why. So electronically we have the board — we happen to use Asana but it really doesn't matter. 

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13:35:03 - 13:51:21

Jennifer Goldman

Because that's like plugging the USB in the brain and letting it come out. So in Asana, we actually line up everything to tie to four things, and then we start to put dates on it. So here's the order the idea goes in. So think of it like a brain burst.

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13:51:24 - 14:18:19

Jennifer Goldman

So the idea goes in, right? Then we say what's the why. What's the benefit? Is it profit? Is it presence? Is it productivity? Is it people? And then once you define the why, it's pretty easy to start figuring out the who. It's the four Ws. And then once you figure out the who based on their capacity and time, then it's the when. 

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14:18:24 - 14:28:17

Jennifer Goldman

So we do the what, which is the idea, right? The initiative tied to the goal, the why, the who, and then the when. Once you have that, that's your marching orders.

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14:28:20 - 14:32:07

Lauren Hong

High level. What did you call it earlier?

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14:32:10 - 14:33:09

Jennifer Goldman

Brain burst. 

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14:33:09 - 14:50:07

Lauren Hong

I totally see it. Yeah, as you can see, like the web. And so then you're using it to basically be able to map all the goals back to those initiatives and then actually transact on kicking off those different actions.

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14:50:07 - 14:50:27

Jennifer Goldman

That's right.

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14:52:05 - 15:13:04

Jennifer Goldman

Then taking credit for what's done. So actually when you mark something complete out on these boards, you keep it in a wins area. And then when you have your company meetings — hint: I don't even care if you're a three-person company — this is a big deal. Your company meetings every quarter. You don't even have to prep for that part of the celebration.

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15:13:06 - 15:18:12

Jennifer Goldman

You just pull up the wins, point them into the slide deck and boom, there you are.

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15:18:12 - 15:35:18

Lauren Hong

Done. I love that. When we do our monthly marketing meeting check-ins, we always have a whole slide for wins because sometimes you're just in the day-to-day and you forget — you're like, oh my goodness, we just completed 15 major things or whatever it might be in the last 30 days.

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15:35:18 - 15:45:12

Lauren Hong

It could feel like a lift. It's all these little things that lead up to something larger.

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15:45:13 - 15:48:23

Jennifer Goldman

I want to give you something physical because that's electronic, right?

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15:48:23 - 15:49:26

Lauren Hong

Yes, yes. Okay.

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15:49:28 - 16:14:18

Jennifer Goldman

So this is funny. And I have to be honest with you, nobody's actually done this fully. I've seen it done in print on whiteboards but this is my new vision. And actually, I saw it in the dentist's office the other day because the technology hasn't been made; it's been duct taped. So you can put that board we're talking about, literally up electronically on a wall in a frame.

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16:14:20 - 16:41:03

Jennifer Goldman

Now, you can duct tape this by taking a monitor or sticking it up there with Wi-Fi and then putting a frame around it. I guess everybody was handy. But there's also those flip frames. I don't know if you've ever seen them in your personal life but now they're making them big enough for walls inside of offices. So because we have some firms where the CEO or someone is remote, they're not even in the physical space so they can write the wins on there and like a scrolling.

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16:41:05 - 16:52:18

Jennifer Goldman

Some pictures of the staff, maybe at the last client event or something like that. And then also a list of the major goals and initiatives. So going back to your comment about marketing and we need to see things over and over.

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16:52:24 - 16:53:19

Lauren Hong

Right.

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16:53:19 - 17:01:07

Jennifer Goldman

It's a physical board that reminds you. It's the glass walls or the whiteboards.

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17:01:11 - 17:24:09

Lauren Hong

Super interesting. We worked on a project that was for several clients because of the virtual right, COVID or what have you, similar concept, a little bit different but we designed it in two ways. We designed cards that would go into basically a clear frame. And they had the mission/vision on one side and the values on the other, keeping it top of mind.

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17:24:11 - 17:39:22

Lauren Hong

We've also done a few I think are really fun, just to kind of go back to that idea of, say, top of mind. If there's a computer clip, when you put it on the side, it would hold a piece of paper but the company would mail out postcards with like, this is our quarterly initiative. And so it would have the quarterly initiative, whatever it was.

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17:39:22 - 17:58:21

Lauren Hong

And it was all branded based on their brand. And so it was just for certain departments; it didn't happen across the company. But I think the idea, especially in such a virtual environment, of having something where you can just glance at it, it's a gentle reminder; it's not just one of your million tabs open on the desktop.

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18:07 - 18:20:08

Jennifer Goldman

I love that. That's like the play off pictures in the little paper clips. But the idea of pinching onto your monitor. Well, I don't know about you but I do use sticky notes every once in a while. So what's the difference between a sticky note telling you or something that's branded with the company brand and feeling?

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18:20:11 - 18:42:18

Jennifer Goldman

See this is when people talk about if I may go off on projects. People talk about marketing and I'm like guys there's internal marketing that matters. Everybody says I'm having trouble getting buy-in. How are you presenting it? Is it just verbally with no plan and no structure?

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18:43:15 - 18:46:13

Jennifer Goldman

That other person is going to get that. Exactly.

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18:46:17 - 18:51:18

Lauren Hong

You know what? I know because you have to feel it. And people have to understand, like you're saying the why.

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18:51:25 - 18:53:27

Jennifer Goldman

Yes.

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18:54:00 - 18:56:01

Lauren Hong

Okay. That leads me to another question here.

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18:56:03 - 18:56:28

Jennifer Goldman

Yeah.

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18:57:00 - 19:16:22

Lauren Hong

So this is a challenge sometimes we see too — there's early adopters and then there are folks who are really late to the game. It might be you have a problem from earlier. They might just not be the right fit or they might just be frankly, swamped or whatever it is.

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19:16:25 - 19:38:20

Lauren Hong

How do you bring people, how do you kind of shepherd and bring people and help to make sure they're hearing those messages and help to kind of get that buy-in, especially when they're feeling like, oh my goodness, I already have all this other stuff going on and this person's out and this person left, and, how do you help shape that to really get that transformational change?

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19:38:22 - 20:26

Jennifer Goldman

Yeah, I'm going to be honest, we use the same techniques we're talking about when we do business planning or strategy: writing out. So what we do is we do visual maps. We might do a visual map that says, okay, if you do A that leads to B. I know this sounds simple but it really is important, C to D.

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20:01:01 - 20:03:19

Jennifer Goldman

So you say you don't have time to do this.

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20:04:09 - 20:25:00

Jennifer Goldman

But because you don't have time these five things aren’t getting done. So we tell them what the pain is. Show them the worst pain that's being caused by it. And we work back from the pain point and say but if you did these three things leading up to that you wouldn't be in that pain.

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20:25:07 - 20:28:16

Jennifer Goldman

So it's almost like a process or a flow.

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20:28:22 - 20:29:20

Lauren Hong

Yes.

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20:29:20 - 20:33:10

Jennifer Goldman

But it's just what you call the effect or cause and effect.

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20:33:12 - 20:38:21

Lauren Hong

That makes sense. So are these one-on-one conversations you're having or are you having them directly with

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20:38:24 - 20:40:06

Jennifer Goldman

Sometimes.

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20:41:12 - 21:02:01

Jennifer Goldman

It does. I'm going to say anybody who's really an operator, they already get it. It's usually the visionaries who don't know, the visionaries who can't seem to carve out time or allow the staff to carve out time. So they're the ones we have to do these one-on-ones with, short conversation, or send a picture of what we're trying to say and then we do the one-on-one.

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21:02:01 - 21:18:23

Jennifer Goldman

That's another technique I didn't mention. We always prepare our visuals before the calls and we try to share them before because people can't, especially nowadays, they just can't take it in and respond in that same moment.

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21:18:26 - 21:47:04

Lauren Hong

It's so true. Honestly, I feel like if there's any kind of cherry on top or secret sauce or what have you, the idea of visualization is much more difficult than it sounds. Simple is never easy but I feel like especially when you're trying to communicate a really big concept, I feel like anyone who’s in the C-suite, especially talking to a CEO, it just helps you to lock in ideas.

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21:47:04 - 22:07:11

Jennifer Goldman

That's right. And we don't always succeed. There are a ton of times we just don't know how a person's brain works. So you could say it verbally. You can write it textually. You can visualize it visually. And at some point you just have to walk away. And this is where you get those stories.

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22:07:11 - 22:23:06

Jennifer Goldman

You know what, three years later, if you're lucky enough to still be in contact with those people, they’re like, now I get what you were saying. It's three years later but we can't make it faster. That brain is going to work the way it's going to work. 

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22:23:09 - 22:25:00

Lauren Hong

So fair. Honest too.

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22:25:04 - 22:27:14

Jennifer Goldman

So yeah. Okay.

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22:27:14 - 22:46:09

Lauren Hong

So I think we could talk about all this and go deep on these topics. Any like other thoughts, any big, kind of look ahead for you all or things you think would be helpful for others to hear that we haven't covered.

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22:46:12 - 23:17:07

Jennifer Goldman

I always say that with this topic of change or businesses that are scaling to revisit often the responsibilities of everybody on the team, including your providers. I think that's where we're lacking a little bit on the communications and this buy-in and pace because we're fast-paced, right? It doesn't matter what industry at this point.

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23:17:14 - 23:44:03

Jennifer Goldman

It doesn't matter what role of authority you have at a company. Change is part of the game. And that's where I would encourage more and more businesses to just write it down and co-write it. It doesn't have to be the old style — I'm the owner or I'm the manager, and I write the job description and tell somebody — it's a co-effort of documentation because the minute, by the way, that you lock that in somebody's role is going to change.

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23:44:06 - 23:54:10

Jennifer Goldman

So let's just be fluid about it in a way that we can co-develop it. So I'm going to leave that as the biggest thing because we're leading with that way more than we ever have. And I don't think that's ever going away.

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23:54:12 - 24:11:18

Lauren Hong

So true. I think sometimes, we can get lost in perfection and let perfection drive progress, or we feel it's perfect and it might be in that moment. But you fast-forward four months from now or what have you, and things shift and change. You've got to be able to listen to the market. You have to listen to your team.

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24:11:20 - 24:23:07

Lauren Hong

It always makes me think, folks talk about the way you got to your first milestone and the way you're going to your next and so on and so forth. It's got to shift. 

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24:23:09 - 24:24:10

Jennifer Goldman

So shift together.

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24:24:15 - 24:43:18

Lauren Hong

Yes, together now. So true. Jen, this was so fun. I really enjoyed it. Just hearing a little bit more about what you do and what you bring to the table and just more about how you help shape out that ops plan and then help to implement it across the board. So thank you.

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24:43:20 - 24:44:09

Lauren Hong

Thank you for your time.

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24:44:12 - 24:46:16

Jennifer Goldman

And thanks for the platform.

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24:46:18 - 24:51:26

Lauren Hong

Absolutely. Thank you.

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We talked with Erica Pauly about:

• How she turned a passion for data into Track That Advisor, helping financial firms cut through the messy data to focus on clear, actionable insights that drive growth
• Why tracking the right data empowers advisors to identify what’s working, what’s not, and where to focus next
• The importance of clean, consistent data and simple data entry, and how even small improvements can unlock smarter decisions and long-term success 

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About Erica Pauly:

Erica Pauly, founder and owner of Track That Advisor, a consulting and coaching firm based in Gilbert, Ariz., helps advisory firms track and improve their marketing results. She launched the firm in 2015 after recognizing a significant gap in how advisory firms used data to drive decisions. In this episode of On Purpose, she shares how working as a marketing director and a passion for storytelling led her to build simple tracking tools that revealed the power of using data to support decision-making. Erica explains that many advisors feel overwhelmed by data, often focusing on metrics that don’t align with their growth goals, and highlights the importance of tracking the right data at the right time through clean, consistent processes. As Track That Advisor celebrates its 10th anniversary, Erica also previews new tools and resources to help firms turn data into action.

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Featured Resources 

• Track That Advisor Website
• 2025 Track That Advisor Benchmarking Guide
• Erica Pauly on LinkedIn
• Track That Advisor Contact Form

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Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Blind Spots Sellers and Buyers Need to be Aware of When Considering Mergers or Acquisitions with Verity Larsen
• Uncovering Your Purpose to Find Success in Your Firm with Rob Brown
• Serving a Pre-Retiree and Retired Market with Non-Financial Services with Susan Latremoille

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:04

Lauren Hong

Erica, thanks for joining us.

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00:07:06 - 00:09:07

Erica Pauly

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

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00:09:14 - 00:29:29

Lauren Hong

Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you're here too. And especially just for those who are listening to hear from you, because you have created something pretty incredible, Track That Advisor. We're going to get into what you all do. But before we do, I’d love to hear a little bit about your background, how you came to Track That Advisor, and we'll get a little bit more into what you do for firms.

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00:30:01 - 00:30:25

Lauren Hong

Yeah.

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00:31:20 - 00:48:25

Erica Pauly

It's such a random story. And I love it because random stories are the best. But I never intended to start a company. I never, ever, in a million years thought it’d be what it is today. But I worked for a financial advisor, and I was an English major. I studied rhetoric and composition in college.

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00:48:25 - 00:57:28

Erica Pauly

So it was more about creating a story, and appealing to ethos and logic to get people to like your story, which is crazy how we've come full circle.

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00:58:02 - 00:01:17

Lauren Hong

So I was just going to say I love it. Oh my gosh.

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00:01:17 - 01:22:03

Erica Pauly

It's wild. And so I worked for a financial advisor and I was doing marketing for them. And I'm sitting here thinking, oh, it'll be so fun to write, copy or whatever it is. And very quickly I realized in the industry, the marketing role is much more like checking boxes and doing the things that make the most sense, like running the mailers for dinner, seminars, and all those things.

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01:22:03 - 01:40:03

Erica Pauly

And one time the advisor came home from one of those huge seminars they all go to all the time, and they were like, so-and-so over in Ohio isn't doing dinner seminars, and we don't want to do them ever again. And I'm sitting here as a marketing director; I don't think this is a terrible idea but I have no data to back this up.

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01:40:05 - 01:56:01

Erica Pauly

So I feel like I was failing in my role. But I also had this hunch that it was a bad idea. So I said, hey, look, I'm doing your company books. I'm looking at all the leads coming in. Give me six months. Let me just run and see everything that's happened in the last six months. Then I sat them down six months later.

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01:56:16 - 02:12:20

Erica Pauly

And they loved it, and I loved it. And I fell in love with data tracking and was just like, oh, my gosh, this is it. I love doing this for them. I did it for several years and my husband ended up getting a job elsewhere. And so we moved. I was devastated; I didn't think I would ever leave.

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02:12:22 - 02:28:19

Erica Pauly

We moved to Arizona and they called me within six weeks of me being here and they said, look, no one in the industry is doing data tracking and analytics. Would you just keep helping us on the side? And I said, you know what? You're right. I'm going to just start a company. And you are my first client.

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02:28:19 - 02:30:04

Lauren Hong

Yes.

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02:30:06 - 02:48:16

Erica Pauly

And that was 2015, 10 years ago. And so that is how randomly it happened. I just was doing it for someone for a long time and providing value to them. And then I left and it apparently was a huge need. So we have several hundred clients around the nation now, and it's just really blown up in the last decade.

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02:48:16 - 02:51:01

Erica Pauly

So it's been a wild, wild ride.

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02:51:15 - 03:11:22

Lauren Hong

I'm excited to get more into it because you're right. I mean, you guys are the ones that are doing it in the industry, right? But I mean, data can have so much noise. People track it all different ways, right? Like garbage in, garbage out. So tell us what you do. How do you guys operationalize this, right?

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03:11:22 - 03:33:05

Lauren Hong

Say the firm comes to you and they're like, where do you even start? Because I feel like it can be a hot mess, honestly, right? Sometimes I think of rapid growth M&A or maybe you're just getting started. You don't even know where to go. There's so many different ways to slice it up. So, tell us a little bit more about what you do for advisors or firms or what have you.

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03:34:08 - 03:56:01

Erica Pauly

So we used to do that. I mean, we used to track anything and everything anyone wanted. Very quickly we realized one, it's different for every office because everyone thinks they need something different. And two, a lot of it wasn't making sense or helpful. And that was when I really went into: I need to start saying no, or at least pushing back and saying, I see what you're asking, right?

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03:56:01 - 04:11:08

Erica Pauly

Mathematically, I see what you're what you're wanting us to get. But tell me how that's helping you, or tell me why that's helpful. And 90% of the time they're like, well, because so-and-so looks at it and he's my friend. But you're not even doing those marketing funnels or they're in growth mode and you're not.

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04:11:10 - 04:35:23

Erica Pauly

So it forced me to really learn what is important and what is not. And then I have to teach, teach the advisors. And I don't blame them. There are thousands of points they can look at. And quite frankly, there's thousands of stuff on the trackers we create. But our job, our overall job is to guide them and say, okay, these 15 don't matter at all.

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04:35:23 - 04:54:15

Erica Pauly

Don't look at them. They might matter in a year. But these ones matter right now because it is confusing. And I think the only way people are going to learn is by learning, right? By listening to what we're saying and reading books on it. And a lot of them just feel lost in the weeds, and I hate that for them.

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04:54:15 - 04:57:00

Erica Pauly

So that's really why we exist at the end of the day.

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04:57:02 - 05:14:00

Lauren Hong

Oh my gosh, it's so fair. And I really respect and appreciate that approach because we always call firms we work with like it's very big brother. You can get more data than you would ever want but sometimes it feels really good to just be like, well, is my follower count going up or what have you?

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05:14:00 - 05:35:16

Lauren Hong

But there's a lot of vanity metrics out there. And as you said, if they don't match the business goals, then like why track them? So what do you do when a new client comes on for you, do you go through a discovery process? How do you help to really identify what those key metrics are for where they are in their stage of growth?

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05:35:19 - 05:57:17

Erica Pauly

So when we initially onboard them, it's pretty templated, the actual trackers we are building for them to come in. But yes, I'm asking. The first call I ever do with anyone is what are the roadblocks right now, right? Is it actual tracking or is it understanding them? There's lots of different reasons why people need help with data and analytics.

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05:57:17 - 06:11:11

Erica Pauly

So one, we do start there but two, almost all of them have some growth goal in mind. And so that's good for us to know. It's like that analogy, you know there's three options. You have to choose two.

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06:11:13 - 06:11:21

Lauren Hong

Yes.

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06:12:05 - 06:28:08

Erica Pauly

So when we sit there and someone's like, I want to have a really high ROI and I'm like, awesome. That means you can't be trying out four different marketing funnels this year. Do you know we can't be doing that? Or we want to grow and we want to scale and I'm like, that's fantastic.

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06:28:08 - 06:42:13

Erica Pauly

That means your ROI is going to drop this year. So we have to know that we pull on this thread and it's going to affect this thing over here. It's going to ring this bell. So a lot of it again is that education piece. But I like to know what your goal is. Where are you trying to go?

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06:42:16 - 07:01:04

Erica Pauly

So when you call me and you're upset with a low ROI, I can refer back to it and say but you're in growth mode. That's okay. This is not an issue. You shouldn't be afraid of it. And that's also where it's freedom for people. They need the freedom. They need the freedom for me to say, okay, we're going to put the ROI in a box for a minute and we're closing the lid.

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07:01:06 - 07:12:08

Erica Pauly

I don't need you to look at that until these three new marketing funnels are really solid. You're really good. And we figured them out. And then we can open up the ROI box and get to it.

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07:12:10 - 07:34:04

Lauren Hong

That's so fair, understanding are we nurturing current prospects or is it totally cold? What does that look like from the sales cycle? So one of the challenges we see is, we can give you all kinds of marketing data, right? But then it goes into this CRM black box. It's like what happens there, right?

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07:34:04 - 07:56:21

Lauren Hong

And you don't know what the conversion was. Which advisor is closing at what rates? It becomes very black box. So maybe share a little bit more for those who are listening: you've got all these sorts of inputs — do you go as far as the CRM outputs, and how are you tracking that?

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07:57:00 - 08:27

Lauren Hong

How are you connecting the two together?

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08:01:00 - 08:18:27

Erica Pauly

Okay. So it's twofold. Good question. There's several ways to do it. It all depends on if you have a good process, unfortunately. So some advisors, you're still figuring things out and there isn't a written process. And so the CRM is not clean. The data desert, right?

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08:18:27 - 08:40:26

Erica Pauly

Like the black box. And so we have to immediately start with, hey, you actually have to do some manual entry into a specific tracker. Now, as they grow and as they flourish and they bloom, when we have more people, we can get a system in place. It goes into the CRM, and how we are exporting that is literally like integrations we're building.

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08:40:26 - 09:02:05

Erica Pauly

So we've just rolled out our Redtail integration. We're rolling out Wealthbox this year. But the caveat is you have to do things the same way every single time in the same way for every single lead. And most people are not doing that. So we get the data in lots of different ways. One, it could be manual entry. 

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09:02:05 - 09:23:06

Erica Pauly

Two, it's literally getting pulled — we map their Redtail system or we map their Wealthbox system and it gets pulled into our database. That's how we're getting the information. The second part is the way our platform works is that it's scrubbing and auditing the data. So very, very quickly stuff is turning green where it's missing information.

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09:23:06 - 09:47:03

Erica Pauly

And so people can see, oh my gosh, our process is not as sleek or as honed in as we thought it was, because we're missing all this information and all of us thought so and so was doing it on step two. So it's another beautiful part about pulling stuff out of the data desert and saying you got 90% of it but there's like 10% that is so important for us to get whatever metric it is.

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09:47:14 - 09:55:01

Erica Pauly

So it's kind of twofold. We can do integrations, you can do manual entry, but then we're needing to scrub it to make sure it's clean.

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09:55:03 - 10:16:01

Lauren Hong

So then I want to say let's wave the magic wand, right? And we get to a place where you go, we've got it. We've got good data coming in, good data coming out. Is that a place where you can actually start? What happens when you get to that point and how do you help to map next steps?

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10:16:10 - 10:21:00

Lauren Hong

When you've got a clean input and output on both sides of that?

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10:21:02 - 10:42:06

Erica Pauly

That's the most beautiful part because there's so much you can do from there. Yeah, there's so much they can do. One, they can measure; we can just measure things. We can measure lots of different things against one another. And you mentioned this earlier and I've touched on it. Two, ROI is not the leading thing we all need to be looking at.

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10:42:06 - 10:59:02

Erica Pauly

Now we can see our ROI, right? But then because we have all these other pieces, it tells the whole story. And that's what I'm about — you got to get the entire picture. I was reading a book the other day, I forgot what the book is called. I wish I could remember but it starts with this tiny, tiny picture of a ship.

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10:59:02 - 11:13:06

Erica Pauly

And then the next page shows the ship is just part of a book. And then the next page is this person reading a book about a ship, and it goes out and out and out. That's kind of what happens when you get all the data, right, when it’s clean and it’s good?

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11:13:06 - 11:34:20

Erica Pauly

We have this full picture of every single aspect of what's going on. And then they can make really wise decisions. They can see okay, this is what it's costing us per client. If we know that and we know our close rate and we know our average case size, we can also backtrack and say we need X amount of appointments for the year.

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11:34:21 - 11:45:05

Erica Pauly

I mean, there's so much we can do for planning, for measuring, for coaching. That's when the fun really starts. I know they're super vague, and I don't know if you want me to get into the weeds.

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11:45:05 - 11:46:13

Lauren Hong

It makes sense to limit it. Kind of like you're maybe thinking like a puzzle piece, right? You get all this together and then you can see the finished piece of it, right? So you can better see the bigger picture. And I think ROI is a really easy metric. Who doesn't want ROI, right?

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12:06:23 - 12:26:13

Lauren Hong

But you're right that  it's connected to so many other components of that. And to really understand what ROI means as a metric, you've got to be able to get the bigger picture so you can better align your efforts. So much easier said than done.

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12:26:15 - 12:47:04

Erica Pauly

So in our industry with financial advisors, it's such a long burn. By the time we see the ROI, we're three or four months down the road. If there are problems, they happened a long time ago. So it just takes a really long time to fix it. And again, all those other things are just a little bit more telling of what's happening in real time.

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12:47:06 - 12:51:19

Erica Pauly

ROI is just an old metric. Takes a long time to get there.

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12:51:22 - 13:16:07

Lauren Hong

Long sales cycles, as anyone who's listening knows, are based on key trigger points or what have you. It's buying that mindshare over time, connecting the dots to tell the story. So super interesting. So once you've got the decision-making, do you see that firms are making more changes on the marketing side that are impacting decision-making?

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13:16:07 - 13:31:21

Lauren Hong

Are they more operations, internal side, like we need to do more sales training or we need to tighten our operations, or is it more about marketing shifts or does it go somewhere else I haven't mentioned? I’d just be curious if you see any trends in that direction or any kind of off odds for folks who are listening?

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13:32:16 - 13:53:10

Erica Pauly

It's a great question and it depends on the story, right? I mean, it depends on what all the data is doing. So we have benchmarks. We have a benchmarking guide. What should a first appointment cost? Okay, so the benchmark is about $1,000. And this is for people who are more in dinner seminars, bigger offices that are doing TV, radio, some costs for big heavy price tag items.

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13:54:02 - 14:13:07

Erica Pauly

It should be about $1,000 per set appointment. But if it's more than that, we have a conversion problem, right? So then we need to go back and look at marketing and the leads and the call to action and our conversion rates from leads to setting a meeting. So that's if we have a high set first number.

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14:13:07 - 14:36:07

Erica Pauly

That's what we start looking at. If it's in the sales process because we're measuring that as well. Stick rates, conversion to a second meeting. Stick rates for a second meeting, close rates. That's usually a process problem. Occasionally when we look at all the data you could have, let's say, 90% of your leads coming from all the different funnels are functioning a certain way in the sales cycle.

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14:36:07 - 14:57:23

Erica Pauly

But there's one specifically from radio or digital or whatever it is that doesn't perform like all the others. That's a leading indicator of like, okay, why are the radio people different, right? I had a coaching call years ago with a client and that's exactly what was happening. All their leads were flawless, hitting benchmarks everywhere but the radio leads weren't moving to a second meeting.

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14:57:23 - 15:14:13

Erica Pauly

None of them wanted to move. And we figured out it's because they've only heard them on the radio. They have all these assumptions of who these people are, and they come in for a first meeting. The rest of the people who were coming in were from dinner seminars. So they sat for an hour listening to the spiel, all of them in person.

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15:14:15 - 15:32:27

Erica Pauly

They built trust and radio was not doing that. So we changed their process. They ended up having an hour and a half meeting for radio leads only. The dinner seminar people were fine. We didn't need to touch that. That's the power I found; some people want to change the whole process when we actually don't need to change the whole process.

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15:32:27 - 15:56:18

Erica Pauly

We need to change one little spot for a certain type of people in the process. Or it's also for advisor coaching, right? We get a new advisor in; we think they're following our process and we break it out in our reports by advisor as well. And you've got one advisor who people aren't sticking for a second meeting for them, did they not build enough trust in the first meeting?

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15:56:18 - 16:16:07

Erica Pauly

Was it scheduled too far out? There's a lot of reasons why but when you can delineate it and pull different things out, it becomes very clear where the actual problem is. So I'd say it's both — it's process but it's the demographic of people in the process. It's marketing. Are we having the right call to action here, right?

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16:16:09 - 16:26:16

Erica Pauly

And even just the correct marketing, just for who we are and how we are as a culture and a company, are we doing the right marketing funnels that really fit with us?

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16:26:24 - 16:44:06

Lauren Hong

Yep. I so appreciate the way you all break it down because it's not like this cookie cutter, off-the- shelf kind of solution, right? You can have that to a certain degree to be able to pull in information but it's really like if you're going to train for a marathon, right?

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16:44:06 - 16:54:14

Lauren Hong

Everyone's body's different, everyone's climate's different. All these things, right? And being able to tweak and make changes can make a really big difference for the end outcome too.

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16:54:16 - 16:56:29

Erica Pauly

Yep, that's a good analogy.

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16:57:02 - 17:11:00

Lauren Hong

I feel like we could talk for a really long time. I want to round it out here. Anything you want to share about what's next for Track That Advisor as folks look ahead or any resources you think would be helpful?

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17:11:03 - 17:41:04

Erica Pauly

There's a lot ahead — 2025 is a crazy year. Like I said before, it's our 10-year anniversary and we're going at it with a bang. We have a very cool educational library that's going to be launched early this spring, so very soon. Inside of it, we have ask EP, which is an AI bot of me so people can ask any questions about benchmarks or national studies or what was the normal stick rate last year?

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17:41:04 - 17:46:23

Erica Pauly

And they can just type it in and ask me. And I'm there to answer those questions, which is a super cool resource.

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17:46:25 - 17:48:06

Lauren Hong

That's awesome. 

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17:48:07 - 18:11:13

Erica Pauly

We're really excited for that to come out. That's a new upcoming thing. Many years ago, I saw the direction Salesforce was heading, specifically for financial advisors. And so over the last five years, we've been in partnership with another company, and we have built a Track That Advisor Salesforce platform.

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18:11:15 - 18:30:19

Erica Pauly

So that's coming out this year. The biggest issue we saw with advisors is they go to build their own Salesforce and they don't know how to build it. They don't know the foundation. They don't know how to build reports. They've put fields in wrong. So this has been completely built with the Track That Advisor structure and reporting inside of it.

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18:30:22 - 18:47:07

Erica Pauly

So that's getting launched this summer. So that's really fun. We have an online data storytelling course that's coming out for people to go on and learn how to read data. You might get data from somewhere if you have it in Wealthbox and you don't need our trackers but you don't really understand what to do with it.

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18:47:07 - 19:05:23

Erica Pauly

It's a 12-week course that people can just get and take it online and really use data to help them make business decisions. And then the last one is our podcast. Our podcast came out this year. It's coming out. We're in the middle of doing a bunch of recordings but that is Molly — that's our CEO’s dream, right?

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19:05:23 - 19:24:04

Erica Pauly

They're coming to fruition. So we're pumped about that. It'll be fun. We're interviewing industry leaders on metrics analytics and how they're growing from using the numbers in their practice. So nothing really exists like that. So that's been really fun for us to dabble in. So yeah, lots of new things happening this year.

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19:24:04 - 19:39:26

Lauren Hong

Year I love it. I know you're not kidding. This is a really big year, a big year for you all. And also just for those listening, I mean, so many incredible resources that you're rolling out. I love that Salesforce tool or templating or what have you? And then the AI bot. So all these things to look forward to.

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19:44:14 - 19:46:22

Erica Pauly

Oh yeah. That's fine.

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19:46:25 - 20:10:01

Lauren Hong

Yeah. Well, we're making a link where we can and then what have you, but oh my goodness. Well, Erica, thank you so much for being on today. Sharing a little bit more about Track That Advisor, how you have come to be and evolved, all the support you give to firms. And also just helping individuals and leaders really identify what is important because it's spare time factory.

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20:10:02 - 20:27:00

Lauren Hong

And help them to adjust course as they move forward. Because we know there's no two businesses that are exactly the same for where they're at, regardless of our employee size or whatever metric you want to check. So I appreciate the work you guys do.

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20:27:02 - 20:36:03

Erica Pauly

That's so true. And I agree with you. No one's the same. Just kind of start where you can start and then you go from there. Thanks for having me. I love being here.

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20:36:06 - 20:42:09

Lauren Hong

Absolutely. And we'll make sure to include links below to the numerous resources and what have you. So thanks again, Erica.

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20:42:12 - 20:47:21

Erica Pauly

Love it. Thanks.

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We talked with Verity Larsen about:

• How firms can prepare for M&A by modernizing technology, streamlining operations, and ensuring clean data to increase a firm’s valuation and make the transition smoother
• The importance of uniting people, processes, and technology to navigate challenges like internal culture shifts, data merging, and the client experience
• Why a successful merger depends on having the right team, a clear plan, and a structured approach to blending systems and operations

About Verity Larsen:

Verity Larsen, CEO and Principal Consultant at Versoft Consulting, brings over two decades of experience in investment management and technology consulting. In this episode of On Purpose, she speaks to the critical role modernizing technology, streamlining operations, and maintaining clean data play in preparing firms for a smooth M&A transition. Verity highlights how aligning people, processes, and technology can help prevent roadblocks like culture clashes, messy data transfers, and disrupted client experiences. She also points out many firms underestimate the effort required after a deal is signed, stressing that planning ahead, dedicating the right resources, and seeking expert guidance are essential for post-merger success.  

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Featured Resources 

• The Versoft Consulting Website
• Versoft Consulting Contact Form
• Verity Larsen on LinkedIn
• Versoft Consulting on LinkedIn

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• HIFON: A Community for RIA Operational Leaders and COOs with Shaun Kapusinski
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Full Audio Transcript:

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00:00:00 - 00:30:20

Lauren Hong

All right. Well, thank you folks for listening. We've got Verity Larsen today and we are going to be talking about M&A, which is a huge topic, especially in wealth management if you look back over the last five years. So we're going to be talking a little bit more about preparing for M&A, what to do before and after the whole process, tech stacks, all that fun stuff.

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00:30:20 - 00:41:27

Lauren Hong

So before we get into the details, Verity I'm going get it over to you. Tell us a little bit about your firm, or company I should say, how you got into this work. And what have you.

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00:41:29 - 01:03:01

Verity Larsen

All right, well, first of all, thanks for having me. I appreciate the opportunity here to join you. So I started many years ago. I got my degree in information systems, computer information systems, and ended up landing a job at an RIA. So it was my job to be that first line of defense for users.

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01:03:01 - 01:27:19

Verity Larsen

So I was working with the technology that was being used but also helping with operational improvements — process improvement — helping identify ways to do things better across the firm. And I worked at that firm for about eight years and then ended up working for a software vendor, which was literally that technology.

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01:27:19 - 01:58:01

Verity Larsen

A lot of the portfolio accounting and solutions we had been using at that firm but I was doing implementations of their software. So it was portfolio accounting, reporting and billing, trading, the whole thing there. Doing all that kind of software usage. And of course, I love being exposed to so many different users and seeing how different operations and technology were being used from one hour to the next.

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01:58:10 - 02:20:23

Verity Larsen

And really, that experience was the foundation that established me to go, I really would like to do this independently. I want to go out and do this on my own. And so starting in 2015 is when I founded Versoft, so now we're in year 10, which is very exciting.

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02:20:26 - 02:52:29

Verity Larsen

We are a vendor-agnostic consulting company, a team of nine people working remotely across the U.S. And we have clients in both Canada and the U.S. We simply are focusing on operational improvements through the use of technology. So our services include overall general advisory services with technology.

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02:53:09 - 03:23:05

Verity Larsen

Because it's a lot about the software you're using now in the processes you're doing day in day out to service your clients, both back office and front office. But then also we do lots of process reviews to recommend improvements to current operations and technology. And we help with the selection of new vendors and new technology, making sure the right fit for your business needs because no firm is alike.

‍

03:23:08 - 04:02:18

Verity Larsen

Everybody does have their needs and their specialties and even people make an impact into the type of technology to be used. And then certainly we then get into the details of implementation and we do lots of historical transaction conversions, performance conversions, implementing data warehouses. We also have project management services, and an in-house, U.S.-based development team that builds custom applications and integration and all that.

‍

04:02:20 - 04:05:18

Lauren Hong

Wow, that's a huge component. Do you work with integrations for certain CRMs?

‍

04:10:05 - 04:36:06

Verity Larsen

We'll work with all of them. And the thing is, I've always said when it gets into the different technologies, it's really more about the expertise of the industry and knowing the industry of investments. And the client base — that's where it's really, really important, one CRM to another.

‍

04:36:06 - 05:02:20

Verity Larsen

They have different features and functionalities but in general, really behind the scenes, the backend, the data structure. Yeah, it's all the same. It really is, so when it comes to building integrations using APIs, a simple programming language connecting one application to another — we're agnostic.

‍

05:02:20 - 05:13:06

Verity Larsen

It really doesn't matter if you're using Redtail or Wealthbox or Salesforce or Dynamics or anything else. We've worked with them all.

‍

05:13:08 - 05:32:15

Lauren Hong

Okay. So it sounds like you all cover a lot, which is great. You've got the deep hands-on work you do in this industry as well. I know we talk about M&A as one of those components and it can be so daunting. I got back from an international conference this past fall.

‍

05:32:15 - 05:46:26

Lauren Hong

And one of the things that came up was that a lot of firms will come into these conferences really jazzed or thinking they're going to go into a succession or do some sort of M&A. They're not sure what they learn about, and they're like, oh gosh, goodness, I'm glad I learned a lot about that because now I know about it.

‍

05:46:26 - 06:08:18

Lauren Hong

I'm not sure that's the route I want to go or at least I feel better prepared. So can we talk about where you all come in at the M&A process? I’d love to actually just start from a more logical timeline of where do you even start? If we're going to start with an M&A or thinking about an M&A, where do you all come in that process?

‍

06:08:18 - 06:22:22

Lauren Hong

Then maybe talk that through during the M&A actual transaction session and then kind of post. So we will start from the beginning. Where should a firm be? What do they need to be thinking about and where do you guys come in from the beginning?.

‍

06:22:24 - 06:48:00

Verity Larsen

Well, it depends on if you're a buyer or seller. So it even starts there and we work on both sides. So on the seller side, it’s really critical for firms to think about what their existing processes and workflows are. Like what technology are they using or are they doing everything in spreadsheets?

‍

06:48:03 - 07:20:05

Verity Larsen

How clean is their data? Whatever process is around it is really interesting. I too have actually attended a number of M&A-focused summits over the last year. And what's really come to life is how important using modernized technology is to the valuation of your business and actually increasing your valuation.

‍

07:20:19 - 07:50:14

Verity Larsen

So something I think a lot of people don't really realize is that having efficient processes and more modern technology can actually give you a better buying price and boost. And certainly if you're not at that stage, getting to that stage can take time. So if anything, it's also never too late to get started on this.

‍

07:50:16 - 08:14:29

Verity Larsen

So the way we approach working with a seller is of course, getting in there. We like to start by doing reviews of their processes and understanding how they currently do things, what are their operations, what are their workflows, what technologies they're seeing? Are they doing lots of double data entry and things like that?

‍

08:15:02 - 08:54:27

Verity Larsen

And really try to get them as streamlined as possible. So they're in a good place as they continue to grow or they just remain as they are, even for just future planning, whether it's succession, whatever it may be, or it is truly selling to another firm, and certainly selling into another firm if you are efficient in your processes and using better technology will make the transition a lot easier, both for users as well as the clients.

‍

08:55:05 - 09:01:13

Verity Larsen

Just that overall experience will be a lot better.

‍

09:01:13 - 09:12:17

Lauren Hong

One of the things to be thinking about is getting your operational house in order, from a technology standpoint. And then I'll just say also from a data cleanse standpoint. Is that what I'm hearing?

‍

09:12:20 - 09:15:12

Verity Larsen

Exactly..

‍

09:15:14 - 09:17:21

Lauren Hong

And then you were going to say from a seller standpoint.

‍

09:17:24 - 09:48:22

Verity Larsen

Yeah, from a seller standpoint, our involvement tends to be later in the picture. And usually we're probably not getting involved in any sort of M&A efforts. So usually like an LOI timeline. I'd say there's just things a buyer should be thinking about looking at if they are in this M&A world. Certainly everybody always talks about culture.

‍

09:48:22 - 10:21:25

Verity Larsen

You’ve got to have a good fit. And certainly that's important for client retention. But I'd say really, even before the deal closes, buyers should be reviewing the sellers’ accounts, their asset types, what needs to get converted? The type of custodians they use. Their reports. Just getting a better understanding of the current state can certainly impact the acquisition deal comps but also the transition timeline.

‍

10:22:16 - 10:31:24

Lauren Hong

It's just like getting in there, getting into the day to day, a little bit more than just the balance sheet of where everything's at.

‍

10:31:24 - 10:52:14

Verity Larsen

So that. Yeah, and certainly in the M&A deal. But it's always just work, thinking about the numbers. Like, I'm going to buy a firm for X and then it comes under my right business. There's so much more to it that you really need to think about. 

‍

10:52:17 - 11:10:12

Lauren Hong

Thinking about that kind of pre so there's a buyer. There's a seller. People are looking to engage one way or another. What are red flags before you’re even ready to sign on the dotted line that you think the buyer and the seller should be looking out for?

‍

11:10:15 - 11:41:12

Verity Larsen

I'd say certainly when it comes to technology, are they using modern technology or not? How difficult are their current operations, their functions. I really like to go back to that idea of people, processes, and technology. That's a very common term in this industry.

‍

11:41:14 - 12:12:12

Verity Larsen

You really need to make sure that's balanced across the board because again, it really helps with bringing product cohesiveness and bringing the firms together. Certainly those red flags have been when that hasn't been the case. It’s like if you're bringing somebody in where someone used spreadsheets and someone else is on all the latest cloud technology and has tons of automation.

‍

12:12:14 - 12:54:08

Verity Larsen

Synergies even between the firms. Getting users who have been in the stone age and getting those users to very quickly adapt to this new way of doing things with modern technology. It's going to be really difficult for the internal teams. And the advisors. But then also, the end clients are really going to feel that strain as well because they're getting things very differently than their past interaction. Their experience working with advisors and the client service groups is going to be very different.

‍

12:54:11 - 13:18:10

Verity Larsen

So, I think that is a kind of pain point. I've seen a red flag pop up to that point. I also heard at a recent conference, someone had actually mentioned getting someone's employee handbook. 

‍

13:18:17 - 13:25:25

Lauren Hong

Smart. Seeing how up to date it is. The new year came and did they issue new handbooks? Oh, my gosh, that’s so smart.

‍

13:25:28 - 13:36:02

Verity Larsen

I thought so too. I was like, gosh, that's a great idea. And to me, that also helps you do a comparison to even seeing how close you are synergy wise. 

‍

13:38:19 - 13:56:13

Lauren Hong

That's a great idea. So I feel like we could actually have a whole podcast just on the pre- M&A. And I could go deeper into subtopics. But let's say that you go, okay, we're ready to go. We're ready to start this transaction.

‍

13:56:14 - 14:18:26

Lauren Hong

We decided to move forward, with what I read, with what this looks like. So in that transition period, where do you all come in and what should folks brace themselves for, for lack of better words, sort of what you've been able to shine the light down those dark tunnels? 

‍

14:19:15 - 14:22:07

Lauren Hong

What should they expect?

‍

14:22:09 - 15:02:06

Verity Larsen

So, there's certainly areas like getting in and reviewing your processes and who you work for, the data. I'd say mostly it's looking at bringing all of that together. So it's now lots of data analysis. It's the conversion effort. And really a lot of it has come about by them sharing that conversion but a lot of people don't think about how much time they take to ensure the consolidation is accurate.

‍

15:02:28 - 15:14:00

Verity Larsen

And I can't say it enough. You cannot just blindly trust that you hand your data over to a vendor and then you just load it and it's going to be great.

‍

15:14:02 - 15:19:03

Lauren Hong

It's never happened that way, right? Never.

‍

15:19:05 - 15:41:03

Verity Larsen

So make sure you've actually planned enough time for your due diligence to ensure that consolidation, that merging of data, is actually documented. And you're good with that. I just see too many problems with that.

‍

15:41:06 - 15:52:17

Lauren Hong

Yeah. That's so fair. And then once it's in the system, sometimes it just sort of collects dust, right? Or it's just not actually properly labeled or has no cadences associated with it. So it's such good advice. 

‍

15:52:19 - 16:19:11

Verity Larsen

That actually brings up another thought I want to share. I think it's really important for both buyers and sellers to really be clear upfront, even before this deal is inked, that they know what data is going to actually get built. And also because a lot of the buyers really only want to take performance and goals.

‍

16:19:13 - 16:45:19

Verity Larsen

So if you're thinking you're going to have all of your transaction history going back for 10, 20, or longer years, most acquisitions are not for the transaction history. So the amount of data you're looking for, just that activity over time, is not going to get loaded into the new system.

‍

16:45:24 - 17:18:26

Verity Larsen

So make sure you're prepared for that and your advisors are prepared for that. And of course, even the clients. Because again, how are you going to work without having that data and where you may be priced out of that as a resource for decision-making and even reporting to the client? All too often we get involved in projects and it's, oh my gosh we're halfway through the project.

‍

17:18:26 - 17:38:25

Verity Larsen

And all of a sudden the advisor that got acquired realizes I can't go and look at the activity history from three years ago. I'm not going to have access to that. What am I going to do? 

‍

17:38:26 - 18:06

Lauren Hong

That's fair when you're sort of used to those patterns and those ways of operating. So I think it brings up to your earlier point really looking under the hood and pulling things apart before you're actually into that place where you actually have to be able to do that so both buyer and seller can make this the transition as smooth as possible, both for the current clients as well as the team.

‍

18:06 - 18:05:08

Lauren Hong

All that culture. 

‍

18:05:10 - 18:08:17

Verity Larsen

Yeah.

‍

18:08:19 - 18:18:16

Lauren Hong

Any other thoughts about big lessons learned as you go into that post-M&A, transition, if you will?

‍

18:18:19 - 18:52:03

Verity Larsen

Yeah, I probably want to talk a little bit about the teams that are working on this. When people do an acquisition or even look to sell, you think okay, well, the deal is done, and we're good to go. That was all the easy stuff from my experience and my perspective.

‍

18:52:18 - 19:26:11

Verity Larsen

Once the deal is signed and you are in that post-acquisition stage, that's when the heavy lifting really starts. And you need to ensure you have a team of people that are dedicated to this successful consolidation, this merge. And most firms don't have resources available to the level of dedication that's needed. Everybody has their full-time job.

‍

19:26:13 - 19:47:18

Verity Larsen

This requires eight hours a day, whatever their involvement is. So think, oh gosh, now there's this whole other project, a whole other level of work that needs to happen to bring these firms together. 

‍

19:50:22 - 20:18:06

Verity Larsen

The point is if you have not really thought that through, number one, your projects are going to go on way longer than they should. And number two, your employees are going to get really upset. And burn out. And again to client experience, the client experience may be really bad as well.

‍

20:18:24 - 20:47:12

Verity Larsen

We have had conversations with some other firms that have been doing their consolidation, this transition effort, for two or more years. And that is just mind boggling to me. So you basically still have two separate operations teams. You have two separate platforms and so on. It’s inefficient and of course distinct from a business perspective, a management perspective to operations.

‍

20:52:08 - 20:53:08

Lauren Hong

Surely the whole thing.

‍

20:53:08 - 21:21:26

Verity Larsen

And the client experience. I mean, all of it is so impacted. And I don't think a lot of people think about that. I was even thinking beforehand, the level of service clients are getting can make it difficult for marketing and even for new recognition.

‍

21:21:26 - 21:44:01

Verity Larsen

And many people tend to follow Michael Kitces. And he, of course, does a lot of talking about marketing and has lots of words of advice on marketing strategy. And I could guarantee you that operating as two separate entities for years after a merge is definitely not the right thing to do. 

‍

21:44:03 - 21:59:04

Lauren Hong

He also talks a lot about target market. And really being able to lean into that. So going back to kind of a culture fit and the strengths of the team and training all of that. I just would assume those would be naturally the kinds of questions that would come out as you're sorting out the fit too.

‍

22:01:06 - 22:33:20

Verity Larsen

Yeah, you asked about timeline as well. And for me, a typical merger, post-acquisition, should take no more than six months. If you are not fully consolidated in six months, you need to really look if that's a red flag. And at that point, if you haven't already pulled in somebody to get some additional support or assistance, you really need to.

‍

22:33:22 - 22:44:02

Verity Larsen

I'd also say if you are getting support from somebody and it does take that long, things, are dragging out, maybe it's time for a reassessment as well.

‍

22:44:04 - 23:02:26

Lauren Hong

That's such good advice. One of the things I wanted to call out to, I listened to a podcast several months ago and they were talking about going through an M&A. It was a business owner who was being interviewed. And she talked about one of the things she did not expect from this.

‍

23:02:26 - 23:21:29

Lauren Hong

And I don't know if you face this at all, but it’s how mentally challenging it was and emotionally challenging it was from sort of starting this business to making that transition, which of course can impact culture. You're trying to take care of your team, all of that. I'm sure you see some of that going on too, right?

‍

23:21:29 - 23:35:25

Lauren Hong

Not just from the team but especially from the owners or partners or founder, whomever it might be. So, I think that's something that doesn't get talked about a lot but I feel like it's something that impacts a lot of people as they're exploring these opportunities.

‍

23:35:25 - 24:09:08

Verity Larsen

Absolutely. I think especially from the seller side of things, I tend to see more of that emotional concern from people because a lot of those folks are, of course, going to be worried about job stability, longevity. And I think a lot of people just assume if we just got acquired, they're going to be slashing jobs and I'm going to be out the door soon.

‍

24:09:10 - 24:39:17

Verity Larsen

So I think it's certainly something owners should not overlook. They really do need to make sure they're talking with their team about what the future holds, what it looks like. Another thing I think a lot of people don't think about is the fact that merging with another organization means, of course, a larger company, meaning there's new roles.

‍

24:39:26 - 24:54:07

Verity Larsen

There's opportunity for advancement that didn't exist at their previous job. So I think there's actually more opportunities to look forward to. 

‍

24:54:07 - 24:58:18

Lauren Hong

That's a good point too,

‍

24:58:21 - 25:26:03

Verity Larsen

So I thought of something else to share in the pre-deal. I think there's a lot of owners who are worried about even telling employees they're going to be doing a deal. But I do think it's actually beneficial to be open and share that with your team.

‍

25:26:25 - 25:45:03

Verity Larsen

Because I think there's a lot your team can contribute to proactively make the deal the best for the community. And it certainly helps with the transition as well if they are aware of what's going on.

‍

25:45:05 - 25:54:10

Lauren Hong

Yeah. I think just to be open, honest, and help coach people through that. I think if they're along for the journey, that makes a really big difference.

‍

25:54:10 - 25:55:27

Verity Larsen

So yeah.

‍

25:56:24 - 26:07:18

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness. I feel like we could chat for a while. But anything else you want to make sure to sort of round us out here,  any additional resources we can point folks to?

‍

26:07:29 - 26:31:06

Verity Larsen

Yeah, I'd say our website is the best resource. Anybody who’s interested, feel free to check us out. There's a contact form you can fill out and reach out to us. You can also look up our company or even me, specifically on LinkedIn. We want to connect on those platforms.

‍

26:31:23 - 26:46:27

Verity Larsen

We're here as a resource to help both buyers and sellers pre- and post-M&A in any capacity. So however we can be of assistance, we always look forward to that.

‍

26:47:07 - 27:04:10

Lauren Hong

Thank you so much. We’ll make sure to include those links in the show notes. Really appreciate your time and your insights on working with firms, especially as they're going through these big transitions, and making sure their teams and just the whole process is well rounded and set up for success.

‍

27:04:10 - 27:06:14

Lauren Hong

So thank you for sharing some insights.

‍

27:06:16 - 27:09:03

Verity Larsen

Thank you for having me again. Thank you. It was great.

‍

27:09:05 - 27:14:09

Lauren Hong

Absolutely.

‍

We talked with Rob about:

• How coaching and personal introspection can help advisors who feel stuck or overwhelmed recalibrate their North Star to regain momentum and feel more fulfilled
• The importance of defining success and purpose to develop tactical, realistic goals that align with the overall vision for your life
• Why advisors should continually focus on fresh conversations and enhancing their client experience rather than relying solely on technology or tools

About Rob Brown:

Rob Brown, founder of Truest Fan Coaching and host of The Purpose-Focused Advisor podcast, is a self-proclaimed cheerleader of the financial services industry. Rob spent over 25 years as a financial advisor and practice owner, where he discovered a deeper purpose in coaching. Now, he focuses on empowering financial advisors, planners, and RIAs to develop highly profitable, purpose-driven, and client-centric businesses. Rob’s industry expertise and client care insights encourage advisors to explore their purpose and foster creativity to help drive growth, deepen client relationships, and achieve fulfillment. In this episode, Rob shares how he helps advisors define success, set realistic goals, and differentiate themselves from automated tools and technology.

Featured Resources 

• Truest Fan Coaching
• Connect with Rob on LinkedIn
• Free Download: Business Optimization Scorecard
• The Purpose-Driven Advisor Podcast

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Time Management and Helping Advisors Focus to Find Success with Jody Jacobson
• How Lifestyle and Solo Advisor Firm Owners Can Grow Business Intentionally with Natalie Bergsma
• Trends and Strategic Steps for Growth for Advisory Firms with Jake DeKinder of Dimensional Fund Advisors

Full Audio Transcript:

‍

00:00:00 - 00:08:22

Lauren Hong

Rob, thank you so much for joining us today.

‍

00:08:25 - 00:10:14

Rob Brown

It is great to be with you, Lauren.

‍

00:10:16 - 00:40:19

Lauren Hong

Yeah. So, for those who are listening, we've got Rob Brown. He is the founder of Truest Fan Coaching and also has a podcast as well called The Purpose-Driven Advisor. We were just chatting before we got going. I'm really excited to hear more about your story, about how you really help others find their purpose, as we were talking about earlier — what that means, unpacking that and specifically for our community, the financial services community-at-large. I know you've got deep experience in this world, in this space.

‍

00:40:19 - 00:48:24

Lauren Hong

So let's just start there. Tell us a little bit about your background, and how you got to doing what you're doing today.

‍

00:48:27 - 01:19:27

Rob Brown

So a long time ago, I started in the financial services industry as a financial advisor and ran my own practice for about 25 years. And while I was doing that, I had the opportunity to also be part of an executive management team in a fairly good-sized investment firm in Richmond, Virginia. And in that role, I was able to do a lot of coaching and mentoring of other advisors.

‍

01:19:29 - 01:46:23

Rob Brown

And what I discovered is I began to enjoy the coaching and the mentoring I was doing more than the work I was doing with my clients. I said this is probably a sign that it's time to sell your practice. And I had a great partner who acquired my share of the practice, and she went off to run it and work with our clients, our private clients.

‍

01:46:23 - 01:53:21

Rob Brown

And I ran off to work with other advisors. She called it you're running off to herd cats.

‍

01:54:08 - 01:54:14

Lauren Hong

(Laughing)

‍

01:54:18 - 02:09:18

Rob Brown

In some cases, she was absolutely right. But I love being a cheerleader for this industry and in particular for financial advisors and all RIAs who have such important work they do for their clients.

‍

02:09:20 - 02:23:15

Lauren Hong

Oh, my gosh, it's so true. I feel like in talking with so many firms, it's not about the money, right? It's about more and more about the purpose and what have you. So tell us a little about that because that's being able to tap into what you really enjoy.

‍

02:23:15 - 02:37:28

Lauren Hong

And then you made that adjustment. How did you get your coaching business going? And were you initially working with other advisors or how did that all kind of come about? 

‍

02:38:00 - 03:08:22

Rob Brown

Well, because I had been in the industry and in a leadership role, I had a lot of connections in the industry, which led me to do more training programs for the firm I left as well as some other firms I've gotten to know through some industry associations. And then that just sort of morphed over the years into wanting to work more with advisors on a one-to-one basis.

‍

03:08:22 - 03:19:18

Rob Brown

I love my private client coaching and then also doing it in small groups and roundtables where we bring groups of advisors together and work with them around a common theme.

‍

03:19:20 - 03:46:12

Lauren Hong

So to help us understand how you're coaching advisors, where do you start with this conversation? Because there are so many things you can unpack if it's related to the business or personal or HR or all this kind of stuff. Where do you start with those conversations? Or maybe what's a trigger issue people have when they come to you as a starting place?

‍

03:46:15 - 04:16:13

Rob Brown

They're usually one of two. One is an advisor who is having success. Maybe he or she is making more money, has a bigger business than they ever thought they would have. But it's become too much about the numbers. And they've been convinced over the years that the way you measure success is by piling on more AUM or increasing your GDC or whatever it might be.

‍

04:16:13 - 04:41:03

Rob Brown

And they realize, I get that and I want to keep doing that. But I also have some other things that are important to me and my business and the things that I have some interest in are unattached. And I want to try to bring those together. So that's kind of the first group. They hit a plateau and they're looking for some purpose and to share that in their business.

‍

04:41:12 - 05:02:28

Rob Brown

And then the second one is similar but not exactly the same. There are just too many hours in the day, just so busy, that they don't have the time or the skill set to be able to understand how they break down what they're doing in a way where they're really working in their zone of genius.

‍

05:03:25 - 05:16:04

Rob Brown

And the other members of their team who do some of the things they may be micromanaging, do better than they do because they have their own zone of genius.

‍

05:16:06 - 05:34:21

Lauren Hong

That makes sense. Helping people, aces in their places, that delegator or die syndrome, if you will, for what's important or not, it's always a hard thing for, I think, all of us. So tell us a little bit more about how do you unpack that purpose with advisors.

‍

05:34:23 - 05:51:07

Lauren Hong

Is it a series of questions you take them through? Is it exercises? I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you help them figure out how to connect the dots for their own purpose.

‍

05:51:10 - 05:57:04

Rob Brown

Sure. It's hardly ever exactly the same.

‍

05:57:07 - 05:57:26

Lauren Hong

That's fair.

‍

05:57:28 - 06:14

Rob Brown

Yeah. It starts with questions.

‍

06:16 - 06:29

Lauren Hong

Okay.

‍

06:01:07 - 06:32:00

Rob Brown

But sometimes those questions are hard for advisors, business leaders, owners to answer because they've never stopped to really think about them before. But sometimes we'll get there quickly and there is a purpose, a stated purpose. This is what I want to do. This is how I see my business creating legacy, ideas of the future. And we can build around that and figure out where they need help inside their business to get there.

‍

06:32:06 - 06:54:09

Rob Brown

Yeah. Other times we go through a longer series of exercises. Maybe we'll even give up a little bit on digging too deep into why, just to be able to move forward with some opportunities to create some quick wins and some opportunities to see some light at the end of the tunnel in the business, especially for those who feel overwhelmed.

‍

06:54:15 - 07:21:14

Rob Brown

And let me go back to that why question, why do you do what you do? What are your biggest dreams? And then and then I try to dig deep because I think oftentimes just by asking somebody a question like, where do you see yourself in 10 years? You get somebody to answer a question with a few why, see this, this, this, and then you stop and say, well, tell me more.

‍

07:21:16 - 07:39:17

Rob Brown

Why did you say that? Let me repeat back to you what you just said. And then they get to really free up their their mind and they can dream and they can imagine and they can begin to pull that purpose together. And then we can decide how we are going to attack that.

‍

07:39:17 - 07:48:08

Rob Brown

How are we going to make things happen in your business, in your life, in light of that dream, in light of that purpose?

‍

07:48:23 - 08:06:23

Lauren Hong

So these are tough conversations, right? I mean, you have to kind of be mentally in a place to be able to be open to that and then have the time and space. If someone were to engage in this kind of exercise, can you talk us a little bit about kind of timing? Is it the time is now?

‍

08:06:23 - 08:28:01

Lauren Hong

Is it when they're going through a sabbatical, maybe they are at a transition point in their lives or something that's triggered them? Is there any kind of timing you think someone should look out for when it would be good to make sure they've got the kind of breathing room to to digest these questions and what have you?

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08:28:04 - 09:01:22

Rob Brown

Yeah. So the two ways I suggest people come to me show themselves in lots of different ways and so that to me creates the opening, for example, somebody is wondering about what's next? Why am I really doing what I'm doing? And they're also hearing at the same time all this chatter in the industry about you have to have a succession plan, you have to build a legacy — that just creates that opening.

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09:01:29 - 09:30:25

Rob Brown

And for financial advisors, you would think it would be easier because those who do serious financial planning see this all the time with their clients — they ask these big questions. But they don't always get the full answer. But they do know sometimes a client comes to them because there's something going on in their life where they have some questions or they want some answers.

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09:31:06 - 09:59:21

Rob Brown

But they don't know exactly what the questions are, what the path is. And so I really think, and this maybe sounds self-serving, you can start this process at any time but you have to be open to change and open to doing things maybe differently than you've done them before. And the end result is usually after about three or four months in, they'll say, why didn't I start this years ago?

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09:59:25 - 10:08:03

Rob Brown

Because they realize they could have made more progress and felt more fulfilled if they had just gotten an earlier start.

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10:08:27 - 10:25:24

Lauren Hong

So as you're going through this process with individuals or groups of people and you're helping to peel away like, okay, this is where you can be your best self or you can have your sort of peak performance. You talked about those kind of micro wins, those daily wins for how people can take it from big picture to small.

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10:26:09 - 10:39:19

Lauren Hong

Can you talk a little bit more about how you help individuals to really lean into their best self once they figure it out, like, okay, this is my north. This is my professional north, this is my personal north.

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10:39:19 - 10:44:24

Lauren Hong

What's that next layer, breaking it down to those objectives?

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10:44:26 - 11:08:00

Rob Brown

I use a process that I call the Truest Fan Blueprint. And the Blueprint starts with what we've just been talking about but then we break that back into shorter periods of time. So if we're really doing some serious long-term dreaming, thinking out 10 years or more, bringing that back to maybe what's your vision for the next few years?

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11:08:06 - 11:35:06

Rob Brown

For most of us, that's a more realistic time frame to think about. And so we'll set a three-year vision, where we'll start putting more specifics to what the advisor or the team is trying to accomplish. And then we'll create a one-year plan. And then that one-year plan gets broken down into 90-day sprints.

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11:35:14 - 12:02:19

Rob Brown

And so that creates the opportunity to say, okay, I know what I need to do over the next 90 days that will lead to my one-year goals, which puts me on the path to that three-year vision, which puts me on the path to that purpose. And then we get very tactical. We say, okay, if we've got this action plan, this 90-day sprint we're working on, let's make sure the things we're doing are quick wins and needle movers and not just more thinking about thinking.

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12:02:22 - 12:10:14

Lauren Hong

Yes, that makes sense. And just to clarify, is this for both the business that you build this plan and for the personal or is it one in the same?

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12:10:16 - 12:35:16

Rob Brown

It really depends on the client. I have some clients who have very specific personal plans that they want to really keep very separate from their businesses. But in most cases, because the advisors I'm working with are either a sole advisor running a big practice or a few partners working together, the two can come together.

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12:35:18 - 12:46:17

Lauren Hong

Okay. So then when you're building these plans, are you typically doing it for an individual or for teams, or does it just depend on the situation?

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12:46:19 - 13:18:25

Rob Brown

It depends on the situation. But if we're working on it at a business level or a team level, we're inevitably going to find things that different members of the team need to be focusing on to affect that goal they're working toward. And so at that tactical level, there's probably more where we'll split things out and say you as the business owner/leader really need to be focusing on this.

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13:18:27 - 13:25:11

Rob Brown

And the other members of your team need to be focusing on these things but you're working toward the same common goals.

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13:25:13 - 13:51:03

Lauren Hong

Or scoreboard it out, if you will. Interesting. So I know there's a lot of firms we work with that use EOS as a model. So when you're sort of talking about your long quarterly 90-day, it sounds like you could see some parallels with that. I know EOS has the VTO. I don't know how familiar you are with EOS but that’s the vision tracker.

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13:51:09 - 14:07:09

Lauren Hong

It sounds like a lot of the work you're doing, which is so critical at the beginning, is really unpacking the why and the purpose. What are we doing? What is the bigger picture? Because you can storyboard and you get into the specifics without kind of looking out to see what is actually north?

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14:07:15 - 14:16:16

Lauren Hong

And you could be going down a path that doesn't make sense for a long time before you actually answer those questions. It sounds like there’s a lot of upfront value in those conversations.

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14:16:18 - 14:47:24

Rob Brown

Yeah. I'm a big believer that most of us don't do things that are purely original. We all learn from our experiences and other processes we've been through to recreate our systems and EOS is among many systems I've had exposure to, over the years, that have helped me create my Truest Fan Blueprint.    

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14:47:25 - 14:53:20

Rob Brown

It's a similar system with its own intricacies.

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14:53:23 - 15:13:12

Lauren Hong

Yeah, just from business learning and practices, like setting KPIs and what have, breaking it down, all of that. So interesting. But it's really like breaking down those pieces for the advisor and where they can align their true north to make a difference.

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15:13:12 - 15:27:26

Lauren Hong

So what you talk about helps you to be able to grow faster, right? What does that look like for firms when they're like, okay, we've got a good groove with things as they're moving forward. We've got these plans in place.

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15:27:26 - 15:35:01

Lauren Hong

How do you track that once it starts moving forward? So they can create that growth for whatever power that's defined for the firm?

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15:35:03 - 16:01:19

Rob Brown

Well, the first thing we do is define what that growth looks like, because growth in this industry can sometimes be very arbitrary, there are different ways advisors’ practices can grow. We have had in this industry a lot of wind in our sails for several years, where growth can just come from the market doing better, and clients’ assets growing, and then you get a certain level of growth.

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16:01:19 - 16:32:18

Rob Brown

And then there are opportunities to deepen wallet share and get more opportunities to work with existing clients. And then the opportunity to add new clients with new assets and new opportunities. And so I like to make sure we're looking at all three of those things. And what I find is most of my clients where growth is one of their primary drivers — and for some, they just know growth is going to be a byproduct of the other things they do — they don’t even put a number on the board as to where they expect to be.

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16:32:18 - 16:55:16

Rob Brown

But those who really do want to focus tend to think of it in terms of how many new ideal clients do I want to add this year? Because you can make the case that if you go up, I have a chart that shows up.

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16:55:16 - 17:21:19

Rob Brown

But if you go up this pyramid, where you're working with more and more ideal clients, over time your business becomes more, grows faster, becomes more successful. You're working in the places where you really want to work. So if we can create a focus on growth and say my goal this year is to bring in 12 new $2 million clients, one $2 million client a month.

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17:21:22 - 17:28:20

Rob Brown

That's going to give me the growth I need on top of any growth I may get from the market or any opportunities I may get from existing clients.

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17:29:28 - 17:47:20

Lauren Hong

Oh yeah, that makes sense. And also, just from a fulfillment standpoint, if you're working with more of your ideal clients too, right? I mean, you're probably going to enjoy the industry they're in or their stage of life or what have you. And then that helps with the fulfillment piece of it.

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17:47:20 - 17:52:04

Lauren Hong

And you're probably going to do a better job at your job. And then kind of just thinking full circle about it all.

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17:52:04 - 18:13:13

Rob Brown

So yes, absolutely. And I think the other thing it does is it helps you identify, again, if you're in that growth mode of what activities do you need to be engaged in from a marketing and sales and prospecting perspective to give you the audience you need to be able to add whatever that goal is for those new ideal clients.

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18:13:13 - 18:15:21

Rob Brown

So it helps you set more clear targets.

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18:15:27 - 18:34:05

Lauren Hong

Yep. That makes so much sense. We talked a little bit about client service, right? Because as a company grows, sometimes the client service component can sort of sag a little bit. Or you've got to tighten it. It gets more complex within the CRM or how you segment clients or what have you.

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18:34:07 - 18:56:27

Lauren Hong

I’d love to hear a little bit about that, how you're talking with your clients about that. How they can keep that exceptional customer service or client service because that's so paramount to this industry, taking good care of people. And really leaning into that human touch. I’d love to hear a little bit more about your thoughts on that.

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18:56:29 - 19:18:28

Rob Brown

Yeah. This is actually a big focus for me and several of my clients this year, because one of the things I came to a realization of last year, especially as I was doing my podcast and talking to some advisors I've not worked with, there's some creativity really needed to determine how do I really add value?

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19:18:28 - 19:44:20

Rob Brown

I have my service model in place. I have my communication standards in place. And my clients are taking them for granted. In fact, some clients don't even want to come in and see me because they think I'm just going to have that same old conversation with Rob, and he's just going to tell me everything's good and it's like going to the dentist every six months.

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19:44:20 - 19:48:15

Rob Brown

I know I need to do it, but if I go, yeah.

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19:48:18 - 19:49:01

Lauren Hong

Yeah.

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19:49:08 - 20:36:21

Rob Brown

And one of my podcast guests, a fellow named David Brown, no relation, said that. That's what he believes. We should see those client relationships — it should be like the client wants to go back to that dental appointment, to those reviews, because there's some excitement around the conversations they're having — you as my advisor are giving me the opportunity to think even deeper and more creatively about the things I want to do when I retire and how I can get engaged in philanthropy during my lifetime and and have more impact in those causes I care about.

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20:36:21 - 21:04:21

Rob Brown

So the review meeting is part coming in and looking at the numbers and then in part saying, okay, how are you doing toward those things that are really important in your life, to elevate those conversations. And then that can turn into different systems for creating recurring content that helps the advisor stay in touch with that client.

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21:04:24 - 21:14:21

Rob Brown

Again, not just on the numbers, not just with performance reports, but around what that advisor really has grown to know about what's important to that client.

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21:14:23 - 21:38:20

Lauren Hong

Yeah. So interesting. And I think really important. The deeper conversations are not that upfront but they're adjusting in terms of clients moving through their own life and their particular circumstances to make sure the question helps them align the numbers. Another sort of way to say it. 

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21:38:20 - 21:58:19

Lauren Hong

There was a Kitces article that came out, sort of flashback to five, six years ago when robo advisors were the thing, right? And now there’s AI and all this other stuff. And it was talking about how that fear a lot of especially large firms had at that time has sort of faded.

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21:58:19 - 22:16:25

Lauren Hong

And I think it's because of the human element. And so it was to your point of being able to ask these deeper questions, adjusting as people are moving forward, having those human connections is so critical. So it's interesting to hear you're leaning in on that as a component of success for firms.

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22:17:01 - 22:38:19

Rob Brown

I think it's extremely important. And it's just a matter of coming up with different questions because, I think, Lauren, you know and I know the way we grow in relationships is by asking questions and listening and having conversations but sometimes you have to change up the question so you don't get the same old answer.

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22:38:22 - 22:43:13

Lauren Hong

Yeah. It's so true. It's a people business.

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22:43:13 - 23:15:22

Rob Brown

One thing I would really suggest advisors think about because you mentioned the term robo advisors, is — I don't know if I've coined this phrase but I have used it a lot — I think too many advisors are becoming human robo advisors. Because they have this technology stack, financial planning tools, or their investment management tools that allow them to do their asset allocation.

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23:16:14 - 23:46:14

Rob Brown

A conversation can be all about the printout or the projection on the screen of the plan or the portfolio. And all they're doing is perpetuating the fact that they aren't needed as an advisor. They've become the robo advisor. And so to advisors, I'd ask, have you really thought about how you are improving your client experience every single year?

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23:47:05 - 23:50:11

Rob Brown

Because it needs to get better every single year.

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23:50:13 - 24:14:00

Lauren Hong

Yep. We see that in marketing too, where we'll see this across the financial services industry or space — people thinking just by this big cold list of contacts, just do mass outreach without any warm conversation or taking the time or what have you. And they spend all this money, it just kind of falls flat and they're left scratching their head.

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24:14:00 - 24:33:04

Lauren Hong

It's about relationships. It takes time and the extra effort to be able to make it personal, to be able to make people feel noticed and heard. And you can't put a number, a value on that. And that's part of that customer experience. That's part of the relationships like you were alluding to. So I hadn't heard it kind of curt like, pinned that way.

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24:33:04 - 24:43:25

Lauren Hong

But you're so right. Especially with all the noise with AI this past year, all these things. So it's sort of almost too much.

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24:43:28 - 25:19:08

Rob Brown

Almost too much. Although I would say AI can actually help you accomplish that more personal contact. But that's the thing about most tools and most new things, we've got to understand how they really work. And one of the things I always think about — I was talking with an AI expert a couple years ago and he suggested the best way to use AI is make sure whatever you're using it for, you are the expert and you're using it to help you do what you do better.

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25:19:15 - 25:30:05

Rob Brown

Don't go to it as the expert. Maybe if you're doing some research and you're trying to gather information, that makes sense. But yeah, I think that's where it really comes into play.

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25:30:08 - 25:50:29

Lauren Hong

Yeah, it is a leveraging tool but not to replace the thinking or your voice or tone or what have you. Oh my goodness. Okay, we could go on this topic for a while too. I want to be mindful of time but I’d love to hear anything you want to make sure to touch on, any kind of closing thoughts or resources where folks can learn more.

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25:51:02 - 26:11:02

Rob Brown

So, as I said earlier, I'm a huge fan of financial advisors and I love to connect with people on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn all the time and share a lot of content there. You mentioned my podcast. I'm sure a link to that will be in the show notes. But if you're looking at your business, say, how do I optimize?

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26:11:02 - 26:27:25

Rob Brown

How do I create more purpose behind what I do? We have a tool called the Business Optimization Scorecard that you can get by going to TruestFan.com/scorecard. It's a free scorecard you can download and do a quick look at your practice.

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26:27:28 - 26:55:20

Lauren Hong

Oh that's great. We'll have to make sure I include a link too. So that's fantastic. Well, it's been so wonderful having you here to share a little bit more about your background, your story. You've got such a great story about how you started and then where you are today. And, I appreciate you taking the time to do really deep work to help individuals and firms really figure out their purpose and where they're going and then map that against the day to day of their practice goals.

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26:55:20 - 26:57:29

Lauren Hong

So thank you again for your time.

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26:58:01 - 27:03:25

Rob Brown

Oh, thank you for having me.

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We talked with Shaun about:

• The challenges operational, back office, and other non-advisory roles face at RIAs, often working and navigating challenges alone
• How the High Impact Financial Operations Network (HIFON) offers a supportive community for operational leaders to solve problems, connect, and help others succeed
• HIFON’s journey from a virtual study group to a network of hundreds of RIA professionals providing access to valuable resources and opportunities

Featured Resources 

• The HIFON Website
• Join HIFON
• Shaun Kapusinski on LinkedIn

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Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• How Financial Advisors Can Fuel Firm Growth with People-Centric Operations with Jackie Benjamin Hatherley of RIA Ops
• Unlocking Growth: How to Optimize CRMs and Operating Procedures with Kate Guillen of Simplicity Ops
• EOS® Strategies for Financial Services Companies

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About Shaun Kapusinski:

Shaun Kapusinski is the senior director of technology at Sequoia Financial Group and founder of HIFON: The High Impact Financial Operations Network. Experiencing rapid growth at his firm, Shaun experienced a common challenge among operational leaders at RIA firms — feeling isolated, untrained, and unsure. Searching for a space similar to the connections he enjoyed at industry conferences, he started a virtual study group with a handful of contacts. Fourteen years later, HIFON has evolved into a more prominent community dedicated to empowering hundreds of professionals and advancing the RIA industry. Open to firms of all sizes and locations, firm memberships include access to valuable feedback and expertise, an active discussion board, and a resource library of shared templates and documents. The virtual hub continues to grow, offering connection and collaboration across the RIA space.

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:08

Lauren Hong

All right, Shaun, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

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00:07:11 - 00:08:21

Shaun Kapusinski

Absolutely happy to join you.

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00:08:28 - 00:24:27

Lauren Hong

Glad to have you here today. For those of you who don't know, I'm going to hand the mic over to you here to share a little bit about your background — you are someone to really know in this space. You are so well connected and you've also created an incredible organization we're going to talk more about today that’s really making an impact for operational leaders in the RIA space..

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00:25:09 - 00:44:29

Lauren Hong

And what I love about it is it comes from such a genuine place of you wanting to make a difference. And you've done so much of that. And also just a congratulations to you after Insider Information gave you an award last year — I feel like one of many awards you've received.

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00:45:00 - 01:01:19

Lauren Hong

So, anyway, I don't want to steal your thunder so I’ll hand it over to you to share a little bit more about your background. And about your organization that I think you said was founded in 2010. Am I remembering that right? So it's been around for a little while but I'll pass it over to you.

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01:01:21 - 01:27:12

Shaun Kapusinski

Yeah. No problem. My 22 years in the industry started by being a college student who didn't know what he wanted to do other than go to New York City. And I ended up studying marketing, and I actually could not find a job in marketing. And so I ended up with an insurance company and did that in New York City, tried to sell insurance, which was very challenging for me.

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01:27:14 - 01:50:13

Shaun Kapusinski

I only spent a little over a year there, and when I ended up back in Ohio, the options were either go back into marketing, some kind of entry-level position, or use that year of experience in this quote unquote financial services industry to go a little bit further. And that's what happened. I started with an RIA firm that I continue to be with to this day, which is wonderful.

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01:51:00 - 02:20:23

Shaun Kapusinski

I’ve grown a ton and not only my own role but the firm has grown and has given me just so many opportunities to explore what's possible in this industry. So always having been on the operations side for me in a small firm in those early days, single-digit headcount, really was a kind of exploration of, all right, how do you learn the operations side and how do you develop it within an RIA and so over those first few years, it was just challenging because you kind of felt like you were alone.

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02:20:23 - 02:41:25

Shaun Kapusinski

You were figuring this out. You didn't have a lot of resources to go to or places to pull information from compared to, let's say, what there is today. So within a few years, I had been able to go to a few events and really kind of fell in love with that concept of, oh, there are other people out here who are in a similar role doing a similar job and facing similar challenges — understanding the issue I was facing.

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02:41:25 - 03:03:21

Shaun Kapusinski

And so two or three years of doing that kind of led me to a different feeling, which was leaving these events and being a little bit flustered with, do I really have to wait another year to come back to the same event to have these great roundtable type conversations where you rub shoulders with people who are in this type of a role?

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03:04:05 - 03:29:17

Shaun Kapusinski

And so that's really what kind of led to me thinking about how do I interact with these ops folks. It seemed like every RIA had somebody who was responsible for the back office, for the things that were non-advisor, non-planning, non-investments, and wanting to spend more time with these people. I had kind of taken a page from the playbook of one of our advisors who was in a study group and I thought, oh well that's great.

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03:29:17 - 03:55:20

Shaun Kapusinski

I'll just join one of the industry study groups that is focused on operations, because I'm sure that's where all these people hang out all the time, right? And it seemed like a good idea. Today it probably sounds fairly common but at the time I couldn't find anything. I was scouring the internet, I was talking to anybody and everybody I knew in the industry, asking do you know if there is an ops-focused study group and just kept coming up short.

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03:55:22 - 04:11:25

Shaun Kapusinski

So I'm sure I wasn't the first one to hit this fork in the road. But at the time, I maybe was one of the first to say, well, I'm going to start the group. And so I did reach out to a handful of those folks I had traded business cards with in those meetings over those couple of years.

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04:11:27 - 04:29:29

Shaun Kapusinski

And maybe once in a while, you would reach out to them and ask a question, right? It's a one-off question. It's just one person at a time. So it wasn't really efficient. Maybe to get a broad swath, like if you're looking for a review of a company or a document to get started, it's just nicer to have resources where you can get that from a bunch of people, right?

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04:29:29 - 04:47:16

Shaun Kapusinski

If you can ask a bunch versus just one. And so that was the concept: if I've got five other people I can reach out to and talk to on a regular basis, maybe they'll be interested in having a regular conversation. So that study group concept was really the genesis of how the group began.

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04:47:18 - 05:04:15

Lauren Hong

So tell me, though, because it's hard to be able to create community, right? Sometimes things can get going. There can be a lot of momentum but you've kept this going for some time. How did you initially get that, push it off the mountain to get it going and then keep the ball rolling?

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05:04:15 - 05:09:19

Lauren Hong

I mean, that's much easier said than done.

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05:09:21 - 05:28:02

Shaun Kapusinski

Yeah, I would say that. It wasn't like I had this perfect vision of what the group was going to become. It was more of an admittedly selfish motive. From the beginning. I knew I needed help, I knew I wanted to learn, I knew I was excited about connecting with folks in a way that I could reach out to them.

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05:28:02 - 05:48:09

Shaun Kapusinski

They were my resources. And so for me, it was, hey, I'm going to keep this going. I'm going to be the one who's organizing it. I'm going to take action. I'm going to set up the calls. I'm going to make sure this happens. If you guys show up, then I felt like that was a win for me. And what I didn't anticipate as much, is that thankfully they felt the same way.

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05:48:12 - 06:09:06

Shaun Kapusinski

And so by just keeping that going, keeping these regular monthly meetings going, people started telling me, hey, I've met others I've told about this group that's helped me. They've shown interest. Can we invite them to join us as well? Do you mind if this gets bigger? And I said, no, I feel the more the merrier.

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06:09:09 - 06:30:23

Shaun Kapusinski

So it became just that. That was the community part where I didn't even think of it as a network or as a community. It just kind of became that because we were open to others joining us, and we were clear on what our purpose was and who could come to be in a role within an RIA was that minimum entry point.

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06:30:26 - 06:50:06

Shaun Kapusinski

And it wasn't vendors, it wasn't custodians, it wasn't consultants, right? Those folks over time maybe had interest in joining but we've kept it to the membership. You're talking with your peers because those are the ones in a similar role — they know the things you're facing and can answer the question, here's how we do it in our firm.

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06:50:11 - 07:06:06

Shaun Kapusinski

That's really what the original group was intended to do, is give you this peer-to-peer feedback. How do you guys do it? How do you deal with this problem? How do you solve this issue? So over time that snowballed. I don't know that I did anything other than I just kept having the meetings.

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07:06:09 - 07:11:22

Shaun Kapusinski

The people asked for things like it and that seemed to work.

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07:11:24 - 07:26:06

Lauren Hong

So not to get into the weeds but to get into the weeds. I'd love to hear a little bit more. How did you create that framework within that conversation to be able to help foster that? Was it somebody giving a presentation and there was feedback? Was it everyone would just come out of that kind of conversation?

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07:27:00 - 07:30:07

Lauren Hong

How did you facilitate that?

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07:30:09 - 07:46:02

Shaun Kapusinski

So I tried to mirror it like those conferences I went to and basically in a virtual format. So in 2010, the concept of a bunch of virtual meetings wasn't really a normal thing. So it was a little foreign, you could say to us but especially if you told someone, hey, have you been to a conference?

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07:46:06 - 08:07:14

Shaun Kapusinski

Yes. Have you sat in a roundtable type session? Yes. Most of them said yes. There's usually a facilitator, which was essentially the role I was taking. And that facilitator basically goes around the room and asks people to introduce themselves, tell us a little bit about your firm and what you are facing today. To me, those were the best ones where they just said, what is it that is on your mind?

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08:07:14 - 08:24:24

Shaun Kapusinski

What is bothering you, what has been challenging? What's hard for you right now? This group might be able to help you. You could apply this in any industry, right? You could take anybody's job and connect engineers. You could connect retail sales folks. I mean, you could do this really anywhere you want to. We happened to be in financial services.

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08:24:24 - 08:42:07

Shaun Kapusinski

We have to be in financial planning firms. We have to be in RIAs. We narrowed it down and said, all right, if we get peers together and just facilitate that conversation. And that's how I ran it. And when the group got to maybe about 20, a little over 20 folks, I was on a call where it was kind of unwieldy.

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08:42:07 - 09:03:03

Shaun Kapusinski

It was all over the place, right? You had people talking over each other, and it was those early days of understanding, how do you manage a group, a virtual group? We weren't even doing a video call. It was just a conference call. And it was kind of a mess. And so in a good way, that was a good experience where I felt like, okay, that call felt like a failure but it was a little bit of a springboard for me to say, I just need to break this up into a couple groups.

‍

09:03:06 - 09:33:23

Shaun Kapusinski

And once I broke it up into groups as it grew, I knew I had to keep this in the single digits, just like a roundtable, right? If you had 25 people sitting at one big table and they all tried to talk, it could get challenging. But keeping it fairly small still to this day with hundreds of members, we still have small, single-digit communities on each call that make it very easy to interact with people on a one-to-one basis.

‍

09:33:26 - 09:38:16

Lauren Hong

Oh my gosh. So I just want to swing back hundreds of members. You really had a pain point, right? It was something you tapped into. You've created this intentionally or unintentionally and unintentionally this community started to grow. So I know you have this focus group component but if you want to kind of call it that or if that's the internal word you use.

‍

09:58:09 - 10:10:03

Lauren Hong

But I know there's other facets to it as well. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about that? Because I'm sure these sort of grew over time based on needs members had. So what does it look like today if we were to fast-forward.

‍

10:10:05 - 10:29:05

Shaun Kapusinski

Yeah. So probably within the first couple years I realized there was way more interest than I had expected. And I got excited about giving back more than I initially thought. It became like, hey, this could be something bigger than I originally anticipated.

‍

10:29:05 - 10:43:08

Shaun Kapusinski

I had to make a decision. Do I want to continue to run this or not? And pretty quickly it just became about, hey, I want everyone else to succeed. I've succeeded a ton from it. I'm going to benefit the most by talking to every new member who comes in. I still reach out and say, hey, I'd love to meet you, have a face-to-face.

‍

10:43:15 - 11:03:22

Shaun Kapusinski

I may not be in your small group each month but you know I want you to know who I am. To me, it's a small organization because there's not a lot of other people other than me running it. So I have help but I want to make sure people know the intention from the beginning was to have this one-to-one peer community.

‍

11:03:24 - 11:26:24

Shaun Kapusinski

These days it feels like I'm throwing a party of sorts. And I'm the host. And so I welcome people in, kind of show them around, so to speak, and then basically say, hey, go have a good time talking to these people. I think I've put you in the right room or I've at least created the room for you to be with your peers and some people love it right away and say, this is great.

‍

11:26:24 - 11:49:20

Shaun Kapusinski

This is perfect. This is what I was looking for. And they can't imagine creating this on their own, which is fine, because I kind of point back and say, I couldn't imagine it either. I don't want to say it just happened but the way it evolved over the 14 years is as people asked for things, I just did my best to first tell them, honestly, it's just me.

‍

11:49:20 - 12:04:26

Shaun Kapusinski

So if I can't do this, if this is beyond the capacity of what I'm doing on my nights and weekends, I'm going to let you know, I'm going to be straightforward. But then I also said, I'm going to do what I can to deliver on what you're asking for. So, a couple of those things would be extra calls.

‍

12:04:28 - 12:30:12

Shaun Kapusinski

The normal calls are ops focused, so generally running a business, a lot of technology, a handful of things on compliance. There's marketing items. There are HR things. There are all kinds of topics we cover, pretty much everything outside of being an advisor, planning, and investments. We don't really touch that stuff. But we've had groups, smaller groups kind of pop up where people have said we’re really interested in compliance stuff.

‍

12:30:12 - 12:50:23

Shaun Kapusinski

And so we started a separate compliance call. Marketing came up as well, even enough users around CRM; there's a group that focuses on Salesforce as a topic. So subgroups have been a new addition. We've added the vendors and the consultants, the custodians that have all jumped in and said, hey, we'd love to be connected.

‍

12:50:26 - 13:16:16

Shaun Kapusinski

We've done that by having private webinars put on by those folks, such as yourself. I know you did one for us. We've done some different things that have basically gotten information people might be looking for into people's hands easier. So sharing documents or templates people have, we have a way that they can put those out there, post them to the group, and then everyone can access those.

‍

13:17:01 - 13:43:00

Shaun Kapusinski

We collect firm data. So when somebody joins the group, they fill out a little survey. It basically puts that info into a spreadsheet. And there's access so that if you're looking for firms that might have a particular system and maybe have multi-locations and a certain number of users, you can whittle that down in this data sheet and go directly to those folks so it can help you with some of your searches.

‍

13:43:00 - 14:02:19

Shaun Kapusinski

That to me has been one of those hidden gems. I've used them at my firm, and I try to encourage others to use them as well. So that's an example of a lot of the benefits people get by joining — they get access to these different components and they serve a different purpose depending on what somebody is looking for.

‍

14:02:21 - 14:27:25

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness, I love it. It's so fun to hear you talk about it too, just how it's naturally unfolded. And I also really appreciate that data component because it's very difficult to find apples to apples, especially within the community. You can google things, financial services, sort of baseline standards, but you really have to get that inside data and then that further look under the hood to really be able to unpack things, which sounds like you all have been doing.

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14:27:25 - 14:51:11

Lauren Hong

So do you mind sharing a little bit more? You talked at the beginning about putting together who would show up for the group, operations leaders in the RIA space. Has it naturally over time been a certain size of firm or a certain pocket of the United States or those with common growth challenges?

‍

14:51:11 - 14:59:01

Lauren Hong

Or maybe is it just kind of a smattering of different folks who just really need that community?

‍

14:59:03 - 15:19:15

Shaun Kapusinski

Definitely the latter, for sure. I mean, I was curious about that myself. A couple of times I've taken everyone's location and mapped it out, and you basically just see a nice, almost equal setting of dots across the U.S. We've hit Alaska. We haven't hit Hawaii yet. 

‍

15:19:21 - 15:44:09

Shaun Kapusinski

We've actually had a few international firms join, which has surprised me. I usually have a conversation with them. And I think we're at three international firms right now. They basically do business in their country but operate in a similar fashion to an RIA. So I have a conversation with them saying, if you're using the same technology, if you're encountering the same challenges and issues, if you think this is valuable, then come join us and see how it goes.

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15:44:09 - 16:02:16

Shaun Kapusinski

So it's probably not for everyone. Certainly we know some people even join and say, yeah, I don't know if I have time for this or if it's the way I like to solve problems or talk through things with others, and that's okay. There are other communities, there are other options these days.

‍

16:03:02 - 16:24:20

Shaun Kapusinski

So I think that's a great thing — find what works for you. You know, there are tens of thousands of investment advisors out there; you could say that's the market of potentially who could be in a group like this. And the fact that we've got just shy of 300 firms that are interested in this type of community, I'm thrilled with that.

‍

16:24:20 - 16:41:18

Shaun Kapusinski

I'm happy with that. Can it double? Probably. Absolutely. Maybe just putting out a message like this can help more people hear about it and see if it's something that would benefit them. But like I said earlier, the mission is I want to help people succeed in their roles. I want their firms to do well.

‍

16:41:23 - 17:04:11

Shaun Kapusinski

I want the industry to do well. And so that's the purpose at this point, is putting something together that works. And I've even admitted to myself, if someday this is not valuable to people anymore, then it may not exist or it may look different in the future. Even the AI question, can you get these questions answered by just using AI these days?

‍

17:04:13 - 17:23:25

Shaun Kapusinski

Right now, I think the answer is no, because from a scenario standpoint, I don't know that the reviews and the data it would pull from are necessarily out there. So, we're probably going to try to take some of the data we've collected and do something with that. But for right now, I do think it's still unique in terms of what it provides.

‍

17:23:28 - 17:42:19

Lauren Hong

Yeah, absolutely. It's so fun to hear about. I did want to ask for those who are interested in joining, what is the baseline commitment? Is it a monthly meeting or a quarterly meeting? What would you be looking at to get the basic benefits?

‍

17:42:25 - 17:45:19

Lauren Hong

What would that look like from a time investment?

‍

17:45:21 - 18:03:25

Shaun Kapusinski

So I would say it's what they want it to be. So if you ask me what is the average user experience? Becoming a member has the benefits I talked about earlier, the biggest one being the monthly call. There's a monthly call. People have said, I'm sorry, I don't know that I can make it to every one.

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18:03:29 - 18:24:17

Shaun Kapusinski

I say, that's okay. This is a group that's available to you. You're going to be invited. And if you're able to participate, certainly you will benefit more from that. You have a discussion board, a lot of activity on there. Kind of the same thing. If people have the capacity to maybe respond to others, that's how the discussion board works.

‍

18:24:23 - 18:41:16

Shaun Kapusinski

I'm not the expert who’s answering every question. So it's the group. It's the peers who are actually the ones who are saying, well, here's how that's working for me, or here's how we're doing that in our firm. So from a commitment standpoint, it's almost how active do they want to be in the community. And we get some folks on one end of the spectrum.

‍

18:41:16 - 18:54:24

Shaun Kapusinski

I've had people say this is insurance. I don't know if I'll ever use it but I know if there's a community there I need to ask a question to, I'll go to it. And then the other end of the spectrum, you've got people who on a weekly basis are helping answer questions. They're putting out some of their own.

‍

18:54:26 - 19:15:08

Shaun Kapusinski

And that is, I think, phenomenal. It's really up to the user to depend on how much they want to use it. It's also a firm membership. So I always talk to people about this is not just for you; the ops person could be newer in their role or it could be the CFO and you do have plenty of people in between.

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19:15:08 - 19:33:28

Shaun Kapusinski

So to answer your question from before, it's not a certain size, it's not a certain location, it's not certain technology. It's not even a certain role. It really comes down to almost the person. Does the person who hears about this say, yeah, I like that. I would benefit from that. I want to talk to people about this stuff.

‍

19:33:28 - 19:40:15

Shaun Kapusinski

I want to have a group to ask questions to, and if they want to engage, it's really up to them for how much they would like to.

‍

19:41:03 - 19:57:18

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness, that's so valuable. And like I said when we started, love it. It also just came from a place of giving back and being genuine and solving a problem. And you can just see that through the narrative, as it's grown.

‍

19:57:20 - 20:09:11

Lauren Hong

So if folks want to learn more, where would they go? And is there anything as we look ahead that they should sort of expect in this new year?.

‍

20:09:14 - 20:31:09

Shaun Kapusinski

Sure. Well HIFON.org is our website and that's where you find out pretty much everything. Hopefully what I shared here today is on there. And it's easier to sometimes digest it when you can read through it. There's a little video, and we are working on a refresh of our website for 2025, so that should be coming out shortly and looking forward to that.

‍

20:31:20 - 20:41:01

Shaun Kapusinski

Again, no major changes. So everything I described will still be there. 

‍

20:41:03 - 20:58:04

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness, Shaun, thank you so much. Thank you for just giving back to the community on top of your day job. And everything you’re able to do to support people, and really leaning with that first — wanting to be able to add value. I just appreciate the work you do. And thank you again for your time today and for sharing.

‍

20:58:05 - 20:59:22

Shaun Kapusinski

Thanks for having me, Lauren. I appreciate it.

‍

20:59:24 - 21:04:13

Lauren Hong

Absolutely.

‍

We talked with Susan Latremoille about:

• The importance of integrating non-financial aspects into retirement planning to help advisors better serve pre-retirees and prepare them for their next chapter
• The various non-financial challenges retirees face in retirement
• Why advisors should consider appealing to the “non-financial” spouse in client couples

About Susan Latremoille:

Among her extensive credentials and achievements, Susan Latremoille is a Certified Professional Retirement Coach and the partner and co-founder of Next Chapter Lifestyle Advisors. Observing a growing need to redefine retirement and embrace a broader vision for the life stage, Susan shares how the non-financial side — not just having enough savings — is a significant predictor of success in one's next chapter. A published author and sought-after keynote speaker with over 35 years of experience as a wealth advisor and firm owner, Susan shares her insights through coaching, webinars, and content designed to help advisors effectively reach and serve this dynamic demographic.

Featured Resources 

• Susan on LinkedIn
• Marianne on LinkedIn
• Next Chapter Lifestyle Advisors
• 9 Steps to a RichLife Retirement by Susan Latremoille
• Your Happiness Portfolio for Retirement: It's Not About the Money! By Marianne Oehser

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Supporting Financial Professionals and Their Aging Clients
• Enhancing Advisor Success: How to Add Value Beyond the Numbers Through Human Connection
• Providing a Human-First Value Add for Clients and Advisors

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:13

Lauren Hong

Right. Well, Susan, thank you for joining us today.

‍

00:07:15 - 00:11:25

Susan Latremoille

It's a pleasure to be with you, Lauren. And I can't wait to have this chat with you. 

‍

00:11:25 - 00:24:18

Lauren Hong

So, Susan, for those of you who don't know, it's Susan Latremoille. I think I got that right. She is the co-founder and president of Next Chapter Lifestyle Advisors, if I got that right as well.

‍

00:24:20 - 00:26:10

Susan Latremoille

Partner. Yes.

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00:26:13 - 00:56:00

Lauren Hong

Perfect. So we were just chatting about all things in this industry, a little bit of NAPFA and kids and conversations that are happening. And you have this unique bend around lifestyle retirement planning, which we're going to talk more about today. And I'm really excited to sort of dive in and hear a little bit more about what you're seeing from a more practical level of how to really reach a retiree or pre-retiree audience.

‍

00:56:12 - 01:13:19

Lauren Hong

And also just how to make your operations procedures and communications really fit this demographic. But before we get into all of that, I want to hand it over to you. And if you could just share a little bit more about your background. How did you get into this space? Why this demographic? Tell us a little bit more, please.

‍

01:13:21 - 01:35:16

Susan Latremoille

Sure. Happy to do that, Lauren. Well, actually, I was a financial advisor for 38 years, so I worked at three different firms over my 38 years and built a successful practice, primarily working with high-net-worth and ultra-high-net-worth clients. And I thought my job was done as a financial advisor when my clients had enough money to retire.

‍

01:35:29 - 01:59:08

Susan Latremoille

And then I started to notice as they sold their businesses or stepped away from their careers or professions, many of them were not as happy as they thought they would be. And here I was, I prided myself on being that holistic financial advisor, and yet I'd completely ignored that. There was a whole other side to a retirement planning than just having enough money to retire.

‍

01:59:11 - 02:26:11

Susan Latremoille

And what really brought it home to me was a particular client. His name was Alan, a very successful business owner. It was a family furniture business, and he would always talk about how he couldn't wait to retire. He had a beautiful home in a gated community in Florida. He was an avid golfer. And so his dream, his retirement dream when he sold out of the company, was to go to Florida for the winter and play golf.

‍

02:26:13 - 02:45:23

Susan Latremoille

So I wished them well in November, so idyllic, and he left and I saw him when he came back. We had our usual check-up meeting when he came back from Florida. And honestly, I was expecting to see this tanned, happy, and really bright guy.

‍

02:45:26 - 03:07:13

Susan Latremoille

And I couldn't believe it. He was so down. He said to me, I'm so bored with the same guys I play golf with every day. I'm so frustrated with my golf game. I thought I'd be a crackerjack by now. And it actually has not improved and I've injured my shoulder. I've played every day and it was too much for my body.

‍

03:07:13 - 03:33:27

Susan Latremoille

So instead of being this happy and excited and really positive man, he was actually pretty depressed and down and disillusioned. And I started to see this pattern play out over and over again, especially with people who were really high achievers, business owners, and professionals who had reached the pinnacle and so on. And I thought, there's something wrong here.

‍

03:33:27 - 03:57:06

Susan Latremoille

Why doesn't the financial services industry know anything about this phenomena or do anything? That's what really prompted me to sell my practice, which I did. I didn't want to stay in competition with other advisors, so I sold the practice entirely to focus this next stage of my career on the non-financial side of retirement planning. And so that's my story.

‍

03:57:06 - 04:06:21

Susan Latremoille

That's how I got here. And it was really all prompted with what I saw with clients when I started to look beyond do they have enough money to retire comfortably?

‍

04:06:23 - 04:16:27

Lauren Hong

So tell me a little bit more about what you are doing to support advisors or specific advisors you're working with, or are you working with their clients? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

‍

04:16:29 - 04:42:22

Susan Latremoille

We actually work with both advisors and their clients, so I'll outline more specifically what we do with advisors. We created an advisor program, a Next Chapter advisor program. And we call our advisors in the program First Movers because they really are these thought leaders, these advisors who want to expand beyond just talking to their clients about money and doing financial planning, investments, insurance.

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04:42:24 - 05:03:05

Susan Latremoille

They are people who say, I want to look after my clients from a broader perspective. I care about their lives. I care about how well they fare throughout their retirement journey. So those are the types of advisors who resonate with the work we do. So specifically for advisors, we have a number of things.

‍

05:03:05 - 05:27:13

Susan Latremoille

First of all, within our advisor program, we teach them how to have a different conversation with their clients because quite often advisors are all trained to talk about markets and the economy and interest rates and portfolios. But to me, that's not what the clients want to talk about. They want to talk about what's going on in their lives, what what wakes them up at two in the morning, what they're excited about, and so on.

‍

05:27:15 - 06:03

Susan Latremoille

So we have a training program for financial advisors to change that conversation. And we use a template for that guided conversation called your Next Chapter Scorecard. So that's one of the things. We also provide content for financial advisors that they can put in their newsletters or blogs or simply articles to send out to their clients. Instead of putting recipes in their newsletter, they put on a thought leadership piece about some aspect of retirement from a non-financial perspective.

‍

06:17 - 06:27:07

Susan Latremoille

In addition to that, we do webinars for financial advisors’ clients. It started in COVID when it was very popular to have virtual webinars. And we've continued to this day to do both virtual and in-person webinars and workshops for advisors’ clients. We have six topics we speak on, and I can outline those if you want to go into more detail.

‍

06:27:14 - 07:09

Susan Latremoille

But the webinars are a great way for advisors to engage their clients in a conversation that isn't just about money and markets. So those are some of the key highlights. We also have a bit of a community of advisors in that we meet about eight times a year. And the advisor roundtable, we usually have a guest speaker and then the advisors have a chance to interact with each other because they all are like minded in that they are not just thinking about product and process.

‍

07:12 - 07:03:04

Lauren Hong

And are these roundtables virtual? 

‍

07:03:04 - 07:25:16

Susan Latremoille

Yes. They take place on a Monday afternoon at 4:30 Eastern time. They're 45 minutes. They start on time and we record them. All of them are recorded and they're on the member section of our website. So when an advisor signs up for the program, they get access to all the prerecorded roundtables we've done over the past few years.

‍

07:25:23 - 07:45:00

Lauren Hong

That's wonderful. So I just want to go back to what you said a little bit earlier about the webinars. We've seen webinars be a really fantastic tool, especially for this retiree, pre-retiree group, especially topics like thinking about being a consultant after I retire or what that next phase of life looks like.

‍

07:45:02 - 08:03:10

Lauren Hong

And I'd be really curious to hear from you. And we'll have to link — I'm assuming you've got maybe the topics on your website or what have you linked to that as well. How do advisors’ clients respond to those webinars and is advisor on the webinar as well?

‍

08:03:10 - 08:07:00

Lauren Hong

I'd love to hear a little bit more about that component of your business.

‍

08:07:02 - 08:31:16

Susan Latremoille

Sure. So our webinars are usually under an hour in length and depending on compliance departments, they can be interactive. But many compliance departments don't allow audience participation. And they come in two formats. One is the advisors can purchase a prerecorded webinar that they can link to their site. They can send it out, they can put on a live event using a recorded webinar.

‍

08:31:23 - 09:02:09

Susan Latremoille

And the other is a live, virtual webinar where there can be interaction. And we want to make it really easy for the advisors to put these on for their clients. So we provide them with the webinar solution guide. And it has everything in it that they need to put on the webinar. We give them the social media assets, the save the date, the template for the invitation, hosting instructions, scripts, and everything.

‍

09:02:09 - 09:36:27

Susan Latremoille

So the idea is that it doesn't take a lot of the advisor’s time. They can hand it off to a marketing person on their team or an admin person on their team, or outsource it to do all the logistics. And then the advisor just shows up to host the webinar and then follows up and some advisors have had tremendous success with that in both reaching the non-financial spouse in their client couples as well as using social media and other means of spreading the word to attract new people to their practice.

‍

09:37:08 - 09:40:26

Susan Latremoille

I can talk about the topics if you want.

‍

09:40:26 - 09:46:05

Lauren Hong

Maybe hit on a few you think would be interesting to hear a little bit more about here.

‍

09:46:08 - 10:17:11

Susan Latremoille

So there are a series of six and there are two general ones. Three Secrets to a Happy Retirement is one general one and Your Happiness Portfolio for Retirement. So I can elaborate on that — our whole happiness portfolio concept. But then the other four are for specific audiences. So we have one for couples because we know the divorce rate — and we call it gray divorce — is very high when people retire and some go their separate ways.

‍

10:17:11 - 10:42:25

Susan Latremoille

So how to prevent retirement from ruining your relationship? We have one for women because women face some different issues in retirement than men. And one of the other webinar topics is called Flying Solo. And this is for people who are divorced, widowed, never married, not partnered with anyone. So what's it like to retire and fly solo at this stage of life?

‍

10:42:27 - 11:06:04

Susan Latremoille

And then one that's really popular with business owners and it's called The Retirement Challenges of High Achievers, Business Owners, and Workaholics. A lot of business owners really relate to that one because for many of them, work is all they know. And so they often have a much more difficult time with this transition.

‍

11:06:04 - 11:09:26

Susan Latremoille

Like my client, Alan, who I talked about a few minutes ago. 

‍

11:10:03 - 11:31:18

Lauren Hong

So just for folks who are listening who may not be as familiar, I know you shared a little bit earlier about your background personally and how you got into this space. How are these webinars coming together? Is it paired with your background, or are there others on the team that are putting together this content? Where is that coming from to really make it as robust as possible?

‍

11:31:20 - 12:02:07

Susan Latremoille

So that's a good question. So my business partner is Marianne Oehser, and she has been a retirement coach for more than a decade. She has done a lot of the research and investigation into this whole phenomena. She started her career as a relationship coach, and that's what led her to really delve into that issue of gray divorce with couples, because she she was living in Naples, Florida, at the time, which is a mecca for retirees and older people.

‍

12:02:07 - 12:37:22

Susan Latremoille

The couples that were coming to her were often having some challenges in their relationship. So that's where she started with relationship and then got into retirement coaching. So she's the expert on content and does a lot of our writing and research and delivery of the client-facing webinars. My work because of my own background as a financial advisor is more working with financial advisors and their firms, although at times we do overlap with each other and I can present the webinars too but she's really the person doing that.

‍

12:38:00 - 13:10

Lauren Hong

That's great to have a little bit of that context too. And you're so familiar too, with the space having been in that seat as you lived it. So I want to shift topics a little bit. You have talked a lot about the sort of services you offer, some of these virtual options for advisors and their clients, webinars and such.

‍

13:13 - 13:22:06

Lauren Hong

Let’s hear a little bit more from your perspective if there is a firm that's really thinking about and perhaps targets this demographic of retirees and retirees, how old are they? Are there any kind of best practices to make that onboarding experience seamless? Once they've been onboarded? Regular drips. I'd love to hear a little bit more about things that sort of work.

‍

13:22:06 - 13:30:11

Lauren Hong

Or things advisors should be thinking about that makes sense to kind of bake into their day-to-day checkpoints for this demographic.

‍

13:30:14 - 13:53:11

Susan Latremoille

So I think in terms of onboarding, it all starts with the discovery meeting. And coming back to the my mention of the scorecard, so many advisors in their discovery meetings will talk about themselves, their credentials, their team, their approach to money management, etc. And they don't spend enough time with the client speaking.

‍

13:53:13 - 14:12:22

Susan Latremoille

So what I discovered, actually about 20 years ago, was if I did a discovery meeting and didn't talk very much but got the clients and in that case a prospect talking, at the end of the meeting, typically they'd say, I think I can trust you. And boy, this was only an hour we were together and you know so much about me.

‍

14:12:22 - 14:34:17

Susan Latremoille

Well, guess what? You did the talking, not me. But to get them to open up and talk, especially if you've never met them before, is a special skill. And that's what we teach advisors — how to have that kind of conversation that really gets at what's in their hearts, what keeps them awake at night, as I mentioned, and yet doesn't sound invasive or digging.

‍

14:34:17 - 14:58:12

Susan Latremoille

So I used to never actually talk about money in those meetings, in those first meetings. And I had a good success rate of converting those prospects to being a client because I was different than the conversations other advisors were having, which was, look at me, look at me, and how great I am and where the market is, where the S&P 500 is going, or the latest fund or whatever.

‍

14:58:14 - 15:18:26

Susan Latremoille

And so taking the focus away from product and process and the whole thing and focusing on the individual was really the key to engaging those people. So I think it's also a great way — it's often the non-financial spouse who really is in the background making the decision about who they work with as an advisor.

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15:18:29 - 15:35:12

Susan Latremoille

And this stuff really appeals to that person who just doesn't understand financial and never really wants to dig into it. They light up and it really becomes a much more balanced conversation than just one-sided.

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15:35:14 - 16:01:00

Lauren Hong

That's great; it's such good insight. When someone becomes a client, are there any recommendations you have as far as touchpoints? Do you see what the demographic responds better to? I know you talk about webinars. I've often seen in-person events like seminars or luncheons work really well just because there is that flexibility of schedule typically.

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16:01:21 - 16:19:26

Lauren Hong

I'd love to hear a little bit more about even the questions of paper. Do I print leave behinds and give that to folks? How is that received? A lot of the time, especially for a younger demographic, we're often saying, you don't even need the paper, just have digital versions and have a few printed copies as a backup.

‍

16:19:26 - 16:25:22

Lauren Hong

I’d love to hear your thoughts on that as you carry forward that relationship with clients.

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16:25:24 - 16:55:06

Susan Latremoille

Well, I think there's nothing that replaces people getting together. And what I used to do in my own practice was have lunch and learn meetings where we'd have a speaker but it wouldn't be so monopolized by the speaker that people at the table couldn't just have a conversation with each other. So I love a roundtable format with around four couples or eight people at the table strategically placed, and sometimes prospects mixed in with the existing clients.

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16:55:06 - 17:14:06

Susan Latremoille

Because if a prospect is kind of sitting on the fence, they're not sure where they're going, who they're going to land up with as an advisor — by putting them in with your best clients, your raving fan clients, often at the end of the event, they'll say, oh, they deal with so-and-so. You know, I'd like to be part of that group.

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17:14:06 - 17:38:03

Susan Latremoille

And then they get closed very seamlessly that way. Also, people like to be in community. And during COVID, this was one of the hardest parts for so many people, the isolation. And often when people have retired, they are cut off from their colleagues, the people they used to work with. And many are really struggling and trying to build these new social connections.

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17:38:06 - 18:02:19

Susan Latremoille

By bringing like-minded people together or like-stage people together, they often find new friends or people who are going through some of the same aspects of their life journey, whether it be comparing notes on grandchildren or how to rewire themselves, or what kind of consulting they're doing, or even travel or finding meaning at this stage of life.

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18:02:19 - 18:06:02

Susan Latremoille

It can lead to some really worthwhile conversations.

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18:06:11 - 18:24:15

Lauren Hong

Such good insights. I think we could be here for a while. So, I do want to ask if you have any other final thoughts for folks who are listening or places you think it would be good to go to learn a little bit more. I’d love to hear if I haven't touched on anything you want to make sure you cover.

‍

18:24:24 - 18:46:04

Susan Latremoille

Sure. Well, both my partner and I have written books and published books. My partner Marianne Oehser's book is “Your Happiness Portfolio® for Retirement — It's Not About the Money.” Not that the money isn't critically important but the book is not about the money. And she lays out in the book the essence of building a happiness portfolio for retirement.

‍

18:46:07 - 19:11:28

Susan Latremoille

So we use a portfolio analogy because it's like a portfolio that has different asset classes. So your life portfolio should also have different asset classes. So we break it down into eight areas of life, all non-financial, that are really important for people to plan for their next chapter. And we don't really love the word retirement but there isn't a better word in the English language for it, other than next chapter.

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19:12:07 - 19:33:00

Susan Latremoille

And that leads to my book, which is the latest book I've written, which is “9 Steps to a RichLife Retirement — Live Well, Give Back, Leave a Legacy.” And that all came from my richlife philosophy, which actually started many, many years ago when my clients would be so eager to earn that extra half percent on their portfolio.

‍

19:33:00 - 20:01:01

Susan Latremoille

And then I'd ask them the question, well, what's all this money for? There was this disconnect between the money and the purpose of the money. So to me, this whole richlife thinking is that combination, that integration of the wealth to do what you want but also having a purpose for the wealth. So, our books are on Amazon and they are in a sense guides for people and they make great giveaways for advisors.

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20:01:01 - 20:23:25

Susan Latremoille

A number of our advisors buy the books and then hand them out to clients. It's a small investment and it resonates well with that demographic.  So of course we're on LinkedIn. It's a great way to connect. But also our website is nextchapterlifestyleadvisors.com. And you can always reach me by email, susan@nextchapterlifestyleadvisors.com.

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20:24:03 - 20:56:07

Susan Latremoille

So there are a number of ways to interact with us. But we love hearing from financial advisors. And we love hearing from financial advisors who say, I have a client who needs your help because there's nothing better for a client than to help them guide them in the right direction of building that happiness portfolio, which then the meat of that can go back to the financial advisor so they can do a better job doing the financial plan once they know what the life plan of that client entails.

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20:56:23 - 21:18:21

Lauren Hong

Yeah, it's a full circle win. Well, Susan, thank you so much for your time and also for the work you do. I love that you've literally walked in the shoes, right? You've been an advisor. And you're also taking that work and then helping to support the advisor community but also other clients of that community as well.

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21:18:21 - 21:29:06

Lauren Hong

So thank you for the good work you do. And I'm excited. We'll make sure to link to your book, and website as well. Books, I should say, and website as well. So thank you again for your time today.

‍

21:29:08 - 21:34:24

Susan Latremoille

My pleasure, Lauren.

‍

We talked with Jody Jacobson about:

• Common time management and focus challenges financial advisors experience
• Why time management struggles could signal growth, and why it’s essential to sustain success
• Why successful, healthy time management practices are deeply personal — not a one-size-fits-all approach

About Jody Jacobson:

Jody Jacobson, PhD, is the co-founder and CEO of the Human Skills Institute™. As a brain-based consultant, coach, and trainer with over 20 years of experience, she helps financial advisors align their business, marketing, and life strategies to their unique strengths and values so they can sustain long-term growth and experience the joys of creating greater profitability and meaning for their clients and themselves. Whether they want to become an owner-leader, build a higher-functioning team, hire the right people, or stop giving away their time and expertise to the wrong clients, she helps financial services professionals change their mindset and achieve their biggest goals with confidence and ease. Never one-size-fits-all, Jody tailors her approach to each client's unique needs, thinking, workstyles, and goals.

Featured Resources 

• The Human Skills Institute
• Jody Jacobson on LinkedIn
• Email Jody for free time management resources or to schedule a complimentary 30-minute call

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Trends and Strategic Steps for Growth for Advisory Firms with Jake DeKinder of Dimensional Fund Advisors
• How Lifestyle and Solo Advisor Firm Owners Can Grow Business Intentionally with Natalie Bergsma
• Using a Coach Mindset to Unlock Your Full Leadership Potential
• How to Align Your Values with Your Career and Service Model

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:09

Lauren Hong

Jody, thank you for joining us today.

‍

00:07:12 - 00:10:07

Jody Jacobson

Oh, thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here.

‍

00:10:10 - 00:32:12

Lauren Hong

I'm looking forward to hearing from you and unpacking this topic around time management and strategies. You have a dynamic group background, are talking with FPA Group here in San Diego soon, and have written for Native Advisor magazine. I know the list goes on and on. Why don't I just turn it over to you to share a little bit more about your background and your day-to-day work?

‍

00:32:14 - 00:54:19

Jody Jacobson

Oh well, thank you so much. Firstly, I just want to say I really appreciate you inviting me. I've looked at some of the topics you've had podcasts on and they're not only interesting, they're really spot on, kind of intriguing, and a little bit different. So I'm really looking forward to a fun conversation.

‍

00:54:21 - 01:21:16

Jody Jacobson

So I'm a coach and a consultant. I primarily work with financial advisors and advisory leaders, and much of what I do is helping them invest their time and their mental bandwidth on really high value outcomes. And a lot of this involves helping them make the best decisions for right now and for the future.

‍

01:21:18 - 01:44:15

Jody Jacobson

As a former client of mine once said — I don't know if he made this up but I'll give him credit for it — he believes in making the best decision you can right now and then making it the best decision. And I thought that was absolutely brilliant. And it's a nice way to think about time management.

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01:44:18 - 02:09:23

Jody Jacobson

So some of the kinds of things I work with people on are stay or break away. And the first question I ask is have you ever done any marketing to get your own clients. And then it goes on from there. They may want to attract more ideal clients or get the courage to ask for better base pay where they are.

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02:10:08 - 02:41:18

Jody Jacobson

They need help managing a change or transition, implementing a succession plan, hiring the right people, and more. And a lot of it really starts with getting super clear about how to spend your time and how to focus and all of that. And I learned a lot of this, of course, through my voluminous academic training, and probably more so just through life experience and from my clients.

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02:42:16 - 03:11:20

Jody Jacobson

I've been on my own since I was 18, and I've had lots of different jobs. I've had to juggle my time, working, going to school, getting my degrees. I sort of fell into a career as an internal growth consultant and eventually became a chief information officer building data systems to be able to collect market research, really understand what your clients need and want that’s invaluable.

‍

03:12:16 - 03:33:16

Jody Jacobson

And most leaders are really great at setting, creating goals. Planners are great at planning. And they're also human beings. And so implementing them is a challenge while dealing with everything else. And I've had to juggle a lot of plates in my own life.

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03:34:04 - 03:46:28

Jody Jacobson

And so I think I'm pretty good at it, helping people to get clear about what they do and what they really shouldn't be doing and to keep on course with that.

‍

03:47:01 - 04:13:20

Lauren Hong

I really appreciate that because you've had something like a diverse amount of not only work experiences but then the education to pair those together, which I would assume would create a very relatable relationship with those you're working with. You can take more of the academic meets practical route there. So with that, time management — where do we even start, right?

‍

04:13:20 - 04:31:11

Lauren Hong

Because it's one of those things, like what you're saying, where you take your time is a reflection of your business growth, your hiring, your so many things, right? And it's easy to get stuck on something you might just really enjoy doing but you shouldn't be doing.

‍

04:31:12 - 04:53:24

Lauren Hong

So talk to us about that. What are common time management challenges others have? And I know this is not for any title, right? So it can really be a time management challenge if you're the head of a company, owner of a firm, or if you are in a CEO role or a new-hire as an advisor, whoever it might be.

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04:56:06 - 05:27:08

Jody Jacobson

That's such a great observation. And a really core principle of time management is forgiving yourself. And it's hard for everybody. I find being really ethical and hardworking is so central to being a great financial planner, especially fiduciary fee-only planners. It's hard to separate personal and professional.

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05:27:08 - 05:51:18

Jody Jacobson

And I know we'll talk a little bit more about that. So really, yes, it affects everybody. And if you think you're the only one, I'm saying this: everybody listening, including ourselves, is a reminder. If you think you're the only one who struggles managing time because everybody else looks sort of cool as a cucumber, a lot of us are very good at acting.

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05:52:25 - 06:24:04

Jody Jacobson

Acting as if everything is fine when it isn't necessarily so. It's a human. It's a human dilemma. These struggles with time management are really a normal and predictable outcome, especially of growth. So the irony or the paradox of it is if you're struggling with time management, it's possible you're doing a whole lot of things right.

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06:24:06 - 06:57:10

Jody Jacobson

You just may be over-pressing yourself to do everything all at once instead of chunking it out and sequencing it. And when there's growth, there's more of everything. There's more everything to manage. More demands, more distractions, more decisions. Just more to do, more to track, more people to coordinate with. So truly mastering time management is a critical success factor for doing almost anything else.

‍

06:57:12 - 07:06:21

Jody Jacobson

And for sustaining growth and success. And there's the Jon Kabat-Zinn book. I have to confess, I didn't read the book but I love the title.

‍

07:07:17 - 07:31:06

Jody Jacobson

I think it's “Wherever You Go, There You Are.” So as you grow to become a firm owner, if you're a founder, if you're an intern, if you're becoming an associate, wherever you go, there you are. This doesn't change.

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07:31:08 - 07:33:24

Lauren Hong

Regardless of if you're ready for it or not. 

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07:33:27 - 07:35:15

Jody Jacobson

Oh, God, are you ever?

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07:35:22 - 07:56:27

Lauren Hong

I know. There's a CEO we've worked with —  completely started as a small team. Grew the company to over 200 employees, and will look at everybody and say, this is the first time I've ever been the CEO. And I'm still learning too. And I just really appreciated that humbleness and just the reality of where you are, right?

‍

07:56:27 - 08:27:14

Lauren Hong

And being able to be open to that feedback or what have you. So with that, all of us, right? We're trying to climb ladders. We've got personal challenges at home. We might be juggling little ones, aging parents, so many things you know and/or interfere with people's lives. How do you draw that boundary — the time management — between home and and also the day-to-day?

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08:29:15 - 08:56:14

Jody Jacobson

So for those of us who do work we really love, it's hard to draw the boundary because you want to be able to pour yourself into your work. And in your work it can be very creative and it can occupy other aspects of life. I think the real key is to have a way of always knowing what to focus on.

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08:56:16 - 09:24:03

Jody Jacobson

And always vetting your time. I have two wonderful questions I love for that — one I learned when I worked a lot with quality improvement and the other I just sort of made up. So there's a fabulous question. It's called the so what question? So if you're clear about what you want to accomplish and you know why you want to accomplish it, there's a metaphor for that.

‍

09:24:03 - 09:34:15

Jody Jacobson

It's about making sure at all times your ladder is pointed against the right wall because you climb up that ladder and basically you can get somewhere but it's not where you wanted to get to.

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09:34:16 - 09:35:09

Lauren Hong

Yes, yes.

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09:35:11 - 10:06:29

Jody Jacobson

It's just like numbers. You can crunch numbers and you could pass a test crunching all the numbers. But if they're irrelevant, you've wasted all your time crunching the numbers, that kind of thing. So always being very clear about so what? Why am I doing this? And then the other question I like to add has a little bit to do with ego: why am I doing this? Am I trying to prove something to somebody?

‍

10:06:29 - 10:07:14

Lauren Hong

That's right.

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10:07:15 - 10:11:20

Jody Jacobson

Do you really need to be doing that? 

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10:11:20 - 10:12:13

Lauren Hong

What’s the bigger picture?

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10:13:10 - 10:39:14

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. And it doesn't matter. Or does it matter now. Will it matter soon or might it never matter. Because if you set really good goals and you take a really systemic kind of approach to those goals, chances are if you know how to prioritize the goals — I'm always helping my clients do that.

‍

10:39:14 - 10:54:29

Jody Jacobson

What if I solve this one issue or if I do this one thing, what other five or 10 other problems is it going to solve for me that I don't have to then spend my time on? 

‍

10:55:01 - 11:18:12

Lauren Hong

Yes, yes. So so brilliant. It makes me think of Gantt charts. You've got the critical pathway to success, right? If we do this, it's going to move the needle and push all these other things this way. But what is that actual critical pathway for decision-making? So then how do you make sure you align strategic efforts, manpower, resources, so on and so forth, to that objective?

‍

11:18:14 - 11:48:14

Jody Jacobson

Exactly. So there's the what will it take question. And you know what has gotten you there in the past. I have some methods for identifying how to approach a similar task with skills that have worked for you before because we all have certain personality preferences, thinking style preferences, work style preferences.

‍

11:48:19 - 11:58:24

Jody Jacobson

A lot of people have taken the Kolbe, CliftonStrengths, Myers-Briggs. Whenever I start with a client, I give them a whole battery of that stuff.

‍

11:58:28 - 12:13

Lauren Hong

That's great.

‍

12:15 - 12:17:22

Jody Jacobson

Because then you know what's going to work for one person for time management isn't going to work for another. And that's my big issue with a lot of the books that have been written on time management. I find they're helpful for people who are already sort of good at it, want to get better at it.

‍

12:19:06 - 12:44:06

Jody Jacobson

But the thing is that issues with time management sit there sort of like the tip of the iceberg of a whole bunch of structural and personality dynamics. And if you just approach time management from a time management method that some guru has proposed and then it doesn't work for you, it's sort of like dieting.

‍

12:44:12 - 13:11:23

Jody Jacobson

Time management is a lot like dieting. And time management books are a lot like diet books now. Yeah, you may disagree with me about that. And if you found something that works for you, I'm all for it. The thing is so many planners who perpetually struggle with this have just never found the system that really suits their way of learning, their way of thinking, the culture of the firm they're in, their clients, and all of that.

‍

13:12:02 - 13:31:04

Jody Jacobson

So it's really important to understand what works for you. Because just like with diet and with exercise and other important habits, the best thing to do is what works.

‍

13:31:06 - 13:54:01

Lauren Hong

So it's interesting. We see inside the C-suite a lot, as you do. And in the example I was giving earlier about that CEO who would say, okay, guys, this is my first time doing this, is also the same person from a time management perspective that I've seen no questions asked.

‍

13:54:01 - 14:17:07

Lauren Hong

Dropping the kids off to school, being there for soccer practice. These things are critical from a value perspective. So it's sort of asking the question earlier about that personal-professional. And so I think to your point, there's not a one-size-fits-all formula. I'm sure part of it is like coming down to what's your personal type, what are your values, that sort of thing.

‍

14:17:14 - 14:30:06

Lauren Hong

I’d love to hear a little bit more about how you work through that process to find the right fit for someone to help and how do I say, create that architecture for their time management?

‍

14:30:08 - 14:46:19

Jody Jacobson

Oh, beautiful. Beautiful question. If you could indulge me, let me just mention a few of the kinds of struggles I see planners having with time management and then come back. If that’s okay.

‍

14:46:22 - 14:47:24

Lauren Hong

That would be fine.

‍

14:47:26 - 15:10:03

Jody Jacobson

Okay. So one of the things that happens is everybody wants more clients. And a lot of people will lead with marketing and they get more clients but they haven't built the infrastructure to be able to serve those clients. They don’t have the staffing. And so they're really not ready for it.

‍

15:10:19 - 15:43:15

Jody Jacobson

And that creates chaos. And what ends up happening frequently, more often than you would think, is that's the point where people quit. Because nobody likes to work in a chaotic, disorganized firm; just nobody likes that. So you can end up not being able to sustain your brand identity because you lead with marketing and selling but you haven't built the capacity to deliver.

‍

15:43:17 - 15:47:23

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. Then you degrade your brand, which is counterproductive.

‍

15:48:07 - 15:53:15

Lauren Hong

You have people falling out on the back end, right? You aren’t able to keep clients and take really good care of your current clients.

‍

15:53:18 - 16:15:14

Jody Jacobson

Exactly. Yep. I think about as a kid, I loved Aesop's Fables, especially the one about the tortoise and the hare because I always felt kind of like a tortoise. And with time management, what we're talking about is going slow and methodical on the front end because then you can go really fast.

‍

16:15:15 - 16:17:21

Lauren Hong

That's right. That's exactly right.

‍

16:17:23 - 16:33:11

Jody Jacobson

And so that's where all of this is. That's why it's important to know your own personal style, what works for you, what doesn't. Because what ends up happening is I see a lot of planners who are stressed. They're not sleeping enough. They go to work during the day. They take care of the kids in the evening.

‍

16:33:11 - 16:57:23

Jody Jacobson

When their kids go to sleep, they go back to work. And so they're dreadfully sleep deprived. It creates more conflicts at work. Failure to grow because you're so busy fighting fires and dealing with the tyranny of the urgent that you never do the marketing. if you're a person who really doesn't like to do marketing.

‍

16:57:25 - 17:38:02

Jody Jacobson

But there are a million reasons to do everything else first. Because for a lot of people, marketing is really scary, and it involves asking people. It involves having confidence to assert your worth and there's so many other issues. I see a lot of women who feel like if they partitioned their schedule and asked people to honor that, they've blocked off some back office time and specific client days they're going to be seen as the B-word and there are a lot of women in the industry who started as interns.

‍

17:38:02 - 18:01:29

Jody Jacobson

So they have to change their own internal narrative about how they think about themselves. And it's so many other challenges. And so these really make it harder because they reinforce a lot of false beliefs about growth and productivity. We get stuck in that cycle of just put your nose to the grindstone and work harder and longer.

‍

18:02:01 - 18:36:29

Jody Jacobson

It just doesn't work. So everybody who's listening knows where they get hung up. So if I didn't include you in that list, you know where you fit. So again, for people who really love what they do and spend a whole lot of time training and interning and all of that, it's sort of artificial to suggest there's a clear boundary between personal and professional.

‍

18:37:02 - 19:17:01

Jody Jacobson

It's more about protecting your focus. It's more about learning how to stay focused on outcomes in a clear and compassionate way. And, so if, for example, if somebody needs your help, you don't have to drop everything that minute. It helps to set aside business hours, office hours or it's very helpful to say would it work for you to talk in half hour?

‍

19:17:04 - 19:52:10

Jody Jacobson

So again, I just want to be clear, I see time management as an absolutely critical self-management skill that benefits you personally and professionally. It's a core skill. And if a person doesn't have the confidence to assert good, healthy boundaries around their time, chances are they're not asserting them around anything else.

‍

19:54:17 - 20:08:00

Jody Jacobson

So did I answer your question about the personal and the professional? 

‍

20:08:02 - 20:24:22

Lauren Hong

Yes. So with that, though, you've got the personal, professional side of things. Are there any mindset tips you have either for how to best start your day, your week ahead? Just to be able to get into that because sometimes we get like this running start right where you have this plan in place.

‍

20:24:28 - 20:42:11

Lauren Hong

We've blocked up time. We've done whatever fits right for us. Or maybe it's lessons learned from the past that seem to work really well. But how do you keep that momentum going? Sometimes it's really easy to have a great Monday through Wednesday, and then you’re just fried.

‍

20:42:11 - 20:46:25

Lauren Hong

So what thoughts do you have around that?

‍

20:46:28 - 20:58:21

Jody Jacobson

Well, that's a great example. So let's assume you're a person who typically has a whole lot of energy Monday or Tuesday. Wednesday. You've already identified…

‍

20:58:24 - 20:59:15

Lauren Hong

…the challenge.

‍

20:59:19 - 21:27:07

Jody Jacobson

Well, you could look at it as a challenge. You could also look at it as a strategy. Now if you are a person who has the most energy Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, then schedule your most creative tasks, your most challenging tasks on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And then do what I affectionately call the picky yucky stuff on Thursday and Friday.

‍

21:27:10 - 21:56:04

Jody Jacobson

Or if you find client meetings really energizing and it lifts you back up again, then make sure Thursday's client day, and if you do really well Monday through Thursday, maybe Friday can be a half day, or Friday can be if you're on a hybrid work schedule, work from home day.

‍

21:56:04 - 22:22:23

Jody Jacobson

There's five steps to that. And you've already kind of given part of it away. The first step really is to know what to focus on and what not to focus on. And that comes from having a really good, thoughtful plan, a simple plan, not more than three to five goals.

‍

22:23:12 - 22:49:28

Jody Jacobson

And ask yourself that so what question when you find yourself going off course. But it starts with being really clear about what you want to accomplish. And then the next step is being aware of your own patterns. I love to use the Thinking Styles inventory because some people are very visual and kinesthetic, like hands on and some people are more word and number kind of people.

‍

22:50:01 - 23:35:27

Jody Jacobson

And having a calendaring system in your computer probably works better for one of those number and word people, whereas those of us who are more visual and tactile, good old-fashioned paper because out of sight is out of mind. I used to do a lot of ADHD coaching and if anybody listening either has permanent ADHD or temporary from being overwhelmed because you can have temporary symptoms of ADHD, having visual cues is very helpful, because if you're keeping track of so much, then truly out of sight is out of mind.

‍

23:36:28 - 23:53:25

Jody Jacobson

Electronic systems don't work really well. And I would wager that a lot of people who've tuned in to the conversation about time management are people who need visual cues. I’ve been doing this a long time.

‍

23:53:28 - 23:54:28

Lauren Hong

Interesting.

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23:55:00 - 24:25:09

Jody Jacobson

So structure, calendar to support success. Plan around when you know you're going to have the most energy. I'm not a financial planner. But I really like preparing my taxes and doing my bookkeeping, and I'll save those things for Thursday, Friday, because I can do them with music on and do them sort of in the background.

‍

24:25:09 - 24:30:08

Jody Jacobson

So there's a train. I don't know if you heard the train whistle in the background there.

‍

24:30:10 - 24:32:11

Lauren Hong

No, no, I didn't hear it.

‍

24:32:13 - 24:59:16

Jody Jacobson

And just have a good system. Translate that into your calendar. If other people can schedule time onto your calendar block off office hours. And communicate that to people. Because the client is just as happy being offered an appointment on a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday every other week. They don't know the difference, right?

‍

24:59:21 - 25:21:01

Lauren Hong

Right, right. So just so I'm following, when you're saying a visual cue, you're literally saying a block on your calendar: this is my focus time. Or maybe you have things written down on your desk and you say I'm going to literally physically scratch this off.

‍

25:21:01 - 25:29:00

Lauren Hong

But it's literally something where you're looking at it. 

‍

25:29:03 - 26:12:21

Jody Jacobson

That's helpful. It's something you can touch. Handwriting is good. It reinforces memory. And there was something else I was going to say about that. I'm a big proponent of weekly goals rather than daily goals. So when I work with a planner and they really want to get control of their time management, there seems to be an instinct to what tasks are on their calendar every hour of every day and be real detailed.

‍

26:12:24 - 26:27:26

Jody Jacobson

I can tell you that, most of us, when it comes to time management, we have a little toddler in our brains. And if you map things out so specifically, the toddler is gonna have a bit of a temper tantrum and resist.

‍

26:27:29 - 26:29:15

Lauren Hong

Yeah, that's fair.

‍

26:29:17 - 26:33:07

Jody Jacobson

Because sometimes you just don't feel like doing what you need to.

‍

26:33:09 - 26:55:14

Lauren Hong

You feel like you're force fed it. You don't want it. Yeah. Oh, if I get that tantrum, you're right. You've got to be able to tap into your energy for where you're at, and there's going to be unexpected things that happen. You might be battling a cold or just trying to push through. It's sort of a formula for I don't want to call it failure because you're thinking through your stuff but it's not necessarily setting you up for something that's maybe realistic.

‍

26:57:27 - 27:28:01

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. Realistic is such a key way to keep this. So I love weekly goals. Write them down. The rule is no more than five of them. Most goals are actually projects. So chunk out the tasks for each goal and listeners are welcome to email me. Jody at Jodyjacobson.com.

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27:28:03 - 27:56:16

Jody Jacobson

And I'd be happy to send you some of my planning grids. And if people want to sign up to have a 30-minute conversation about how to apply this to them specifically, we can do that. So I use and and I encourage my clients to set weekly goals.

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27:56:18 - 28:18:13

Jody Jacobson

So then you ask, okay, so what happens? How do I translate that into every day? So if you've blocked your schedule off to allow project time, what you can do each day is look at your weekly goals and say, what do I feel like doing today.

‍

28:18:15 - 28:21:19

Lauren Hong

I love that approach.

‍

28:21:19 - 28:23:04

Jody Jacobson

What do I have to do today?

‍

28:23:05 - 28:39:17

Lauren Hong

I'm taking that approach of answering the question like this week will be successful if dot dot dot. And then you have a few big projects and to answer your piece of it is like okay, there's obviously going to be some sort of priority order but it allows you to kind of structure it out.

‍

28:39:17 - 28:57:21

Lauren Hong

I'm also a big fan of time blocking and then to have that flexibility. I remember there was another CEO we worked with who made the comment, I feel like my schedule is like a street sidewalk in New York. Everybody's just walking all over it and taking up time and everything. I just got to block off stuff.

‍

28:57:21 - 29:15:21

Lauren Hong

Because when you have that white space, it's so energizing. And then you can really feel like you had a productive use of time versus dabbling in a little bit of here and there and just what did I even do today? So I really appreciate those recommendations.

‍

29:17:12 - 29:30:03

Lauren Hong

And sort of the follow up question, well, what happens if it's Friday and you haven't gotten half your list done? 

‍

29:27:20 - 29:30:03

Lauren Hong

Roll it over to next week? 

‍

29:30:05 - 29:52:03

Jody Jacobson

You can roll over some of it. But here's the thing that happens when you have weekly goals. Some people are early starters and some people are deadline driven. The Myers-Briggs is great for identifying that.

‍

29:52:03 - 29:53:06

Lauren Hong

It nuances that part of it.

‍

29:53:06 - 30:13:26

Jody Jacobson

And so if you're an early starter, you're probably one of those people who is gonna get really important stuff done at the beginning of the week. If you are deadline driven, you need the adrenaline to get through it. So you get the stuff done that has time constraints.

‍

30:13:29 - 30:31:08

Jody Jacobson

If somebody needs something from you by Tuesday, you make sure you get it done on Monday. But if you reach Friday and there's still stuff on your list that has to get done this week that can't roll over till next week, adrenaline comes in.

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30:31:09 - 30:35:03

Lauren Hong

Yep. It's then ignite. Push.

‍

30:35:05 - 30:52:14

Jody Jacobson

Yeah. So there's a wonderful quote I love, Oliver Wendell Holmes. I think the fear of being shot in a fortnight focuses the mind beautifully, or something like that. And some of us need that to get it done.

‍

30:52:17 - 31:10:14

Lauren Hong

I'm so glad we pointed that out. And I also appreciate the awareness of the nuances to be able to help guide individuals you're working with down a path so they can really focus their time and efforts in a meaningful way that works for them versus trying to sort of plug and play.

‍

31:12:04 - 31:31:02

Lauren Hong

Goodness. So many good insights. Really also appreciate the stories you shared about advisors and just some of the common challenges they come into and the whys, and then just some good tips about how to be able to both create mindset but then strategies, some quick takeaways for how to think about managing time.

‍

31:31:02 - 31:41:15

Lauren Hong

So any final thoughts for those who are listening where can they learn more? Appreciate you sharing that email but any other final thoughts we haven't covered or what have you?

‍

31:41:18 - 32:09:15

Jody Jacobson

Well, you know, I think we've covered a whole lot of ground. I would say that many of us have a habit. Especially women. But there are a lot of men who do this — also taking care of everybody else's needs first. And those of us who enjoy helping our clients can struggle with that because we're all about helping.

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32:09:15 - 32:47:15

Jody Jacobson

And sometimes it's easier to see what other people need more than it is to see what we need. So our comfort place can be in sort of other rating. And so I recommend getting in the habit of doing a stop action and putting on your own oxygen mask first. I know that's sort of cliche but the thing is, if you stress out from overwhelm, you can't really be fully present to your kids, to your partner, to your colleagues, to your clients.

‍

32:47:18 - 33:27:04

Jody Jacobson

And so, taking care of yourself first is not selfish. And if there's any message I would say having healthy boundaries is actually a courageous act. It helps you help yourself and help others the most. And so if you view time management really as having those having really healthy boundaries, and you have practices around it, it's really a mindfulness practice.

‍

33:27:22 - 33:57:08

Jody Jacobson

I'm more of a science background, so I don't like to bring in words that seem a little woowoo but mindfulness is neurological. It's a neurological fact that our brains can be redirected. And time management is a fabulous practice. You can master your time management, you can master anything. It's so fundamental.

‍

33:57:10 - 34:28:27

Jody Jacobson

And that's really the key, the key takeaway. So I just want to offer up again that I didn't set up a page with a link you can go to to download the tips I have because then you end up on a mailing list and one of the things I tell people when they're managing their time is to unsubscribe from as many mailing lists as they possibly can.

‍

34:29:00 - 34:55:26

Jody Jacobson

And I'm sorry. But get it out of there because it's all designed to make you feel like you're doing something wrong. Most of it is pain based. And nobody really has the right answer for you except you. And so really good coaching helps you access things that are already there.

‍

34:55:26 - 35:24:10

Jody Jacobson

Except you're so busy doing other things, you can't access them, or you're so focused on other people you feel like it's selfish to look inside. So I would invite you to send me an email. It's my personal email, Jody at Jodyjacobson.com, and I'll send you some tips. And I can send you some forms, and you can change them around to work best for you.

‍

35:24:12 - 35:34:04

Jody Jacobson

And then if you'd like to get on the phone for 30 minutes, I would be absolutely delighted to help you with strategies on how to make this stuff work for you.

‍

35:34:06 - 35:56:21

Lauren Hong

Wonderful, Jody. Thank you so much. So many great insights. I also really appreciate your closing thoughts, especially about how time management really takes courage. It's one of our values at Out & About. And leaning into that. I really agree with you. It's really being able to stand up for what's important for you, for your family, for your time, for your own well-being.

‍

35:56:23 - 36:02:06

Lauren Hong

And ultimately that has a ripple effect into all the other things you're doing. So thank you again.

‍

36:02:08 - 36:24:22

Jody Jacobson

Well, thank you so much. And, I mentioned before we got started on the recording that you ask great questions. And I think it's clear to everybody here that your podcasts are really important because you're asking great questions, which helps people like me to share information more effectively. So thank you very much.

‍

36:24:25 - 36:28:10

Lauren Hong

Well, I appreciate the kind words. And thank you again for your time.

‍

36:28:12 - 36:33:10

Jody Jacobson

My pleasure.

‍

We talked with Joe Erle about:

• Why taking a proactive approach to cybersecurity, using insurance and professional guidance, is critical to protect assets, sensitive information, and daily operations
• Identifying red flags in a program or insurance policy that could expose a company to unnecessary cybersecurity risks
• How advancements in technology are shaping cybersecurity and what financial services companies should be aware of going forward

About Joe Erle:

Joe Erle is a Cyber Group practice leader and co-founder at C3 and has been an insurance broker since 2008. Carving out a niche in cyber insurance, Joe’s superpower is analyzing policies, finding what’s not covered, and offering solutions to cover the exposure through insurance or other risk management vehicles. He is dedicated to helping clients navigate the complexities of cyber threats, ensuring their businesses are resilient in the face of digital challenges. He is also the co-host of the ”Ransomware Rewind” podcast, which covers major data breaches, digital privacy issues, and the quirks of internet culture with a mix of humor and insight.

Featured Resources 

• Joe Erle on LinkedIn
• Catch up with Joe Erle
• Joe’s Podcast: Ransomware Rewind
• C3 Cyber Insurance
• 24/7 End-Point Detection and Response (EDR) Systems, such as Artic Wolf Solutions, SentinelOne, and CrowdStrike

Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• Building an Insurance Firm Through Authentic Relationships and Value Alignment with Broc Buckles
• Educating Financial Advisors on Healthcare Planning with Cole Craven
• Cybersecurity: How to Proactively Outsmart Cyber Threats For Your Financial Services Firm

‍

Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:07:16

Lauren Hong

Joe, thank you for being on the show today.

‍

00:07:19 - 00:08:12

Joe Erle

Thanks for having me.

‍

00:08:18 - 00:27:20

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I'm glad to have you. We're just talking. I don't even know how we first met. It's been a long time. Probably like 10 years, maybe more that we've known each other, which is crazy. So you are at C3 Risk and Insurance Services. You've been there, I think you said, going on eight years. Something of that sort.

‍

00:27:22 - 00:35:15

Lauren Hong

So tell us about your background. How did you get into this world? If you don't mind sharing a little bit more.

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00:35:18 - 00:56:03

Joe Erle

Yeah, sure. I am one of those financial services people who was born into it. So my dad was in insurance after he was in the Air Force, and then my brother got into it. And then after being in corporate America for a couple of years after college, I decided I wanted to give it a shot when I found out corporate America wasn't as fun as I thought it would be.

‍

00:56:14 - 01:28:17

Joe Erle

So I started insurance back in 2008, which, of course, is a great time to start a business. And I just started growing from there, and I was selling a little bit of cyber here and there but I didn't actually jump full in with two feet until the major hacks started happening back in 2020, 2021, 2022.

‍

01:29:06 - 01:59:02

Joe Erle

One of my customers actually was hacked, and I was at a trucking conference, actually. And one of the partners of the firm said, can you help this person out? And I had grown my network in cybersecurity, so I was able to give someone a call and help them with that.

‍

02:21 - 02:26:10

Joe Erle

And the reason I tell this story is because he was trying to do everything by himself, because he didn't have insurance or a retainer with an incident response firm. So a carrier ransom group, a ransomware group, basically hacked into a system, encrypted his files, and he wasn't able to get any of that information.

‍

02:26:10 - 02:54:14

Joe Erle

And they also double extorted him and threatened to post his information online, like tax information about him and his family. So more than just getting back up and running from backups and things like that, he also had sensitive information he didn't want getting out. So he negotiated down from the original demand of $250,000 to $115,000.

‍

02:54:21 - 03:01:05

Joe Erle

And he was ready to pay. So he put $115,000 into Coinbase.

‍

03:01:08 - 03:03:07

Lauren Hong

Oh my goodness. Don’t hit the button!

‍

03:03:09 - 03:23:00

Joe Erle

But he hits the button. And he finds out that his money's locked in Coinbase because of Know Your Customer laws. You can't just put money through Coinbase that fast. So his money is stuck in Coinbase now.

‍

03:23:02 - 03:25:20

Lauren Hong

Oh no. It's even worse.

‍

03:25:22 - 03:47:12

Joe Erle

Yeah. To pay this hacker before he publishes everything. So he's feverishly texting everybody he knows who knows somebody at Coinbase to get his money out. And that's kind of where I came in. He was able to get his money out of Coinbase but he still didn't have a way of paying these guys.

‍

03:47:14 - 03:55:04

Joe Erle

So we connected him to a company called Digital Mint, which is a company that exclusively pays hackers in Bitcoin.

‍

03:55:06 - 04:28

Lauren Hong

Oh my gosh. Wild. I didn't even know there were companies out there that did this. 

‍

04:01:03 - 04:27:24

Joe Erle

There's an entire ecosystem around ransomware. It's ridiculous. So the main thing they do, since he had already negotiated everything. They do some negotiation too. You need to check if the person's on the OFAC list, which is a list of terrorists basically, because if you pay terrorists, then you can actually go to jail.

‍

04:27:26 - 04:44:18

Joe Erle

So luckily, this Bitcoin wallet was not on the terrorist watch list and they were able to pay. He got his information back and was able to go back to business as usual. You know, just out $115,000 and two weeks of headache.

‍

04:44:22 - 04:51:23

Lauren Hong

No big deal. Okay. I was going to ask the timeline. Oh my gosh. It probably felt like two years.

‍

04:51:26 - 05:16:24

Joe Erle

Yeah. He had been negotiating and trying to figure out all this stuff for two weeks before I was even notified of it. So, it's a lot to do it on your own. And that's where the lightbulb kind of went off. And now it's like if someone has an insurance policy, it's not just money they're going to give you to pay the ransom.

‍

05:16:27 - 05:45:19

Joe Erle

But the entire team, including the bridge council, which leads the entire thing and creates privilege for you and the council. You got the incident response team. You got the digital forensics team, the financial forensics teams to figure out how much you actually lost. And then you get, of course, the people who actually pay the ransom and they pay the ransom on your behalf, of course.

‍

05:45:26 - 06:09:04

Joe Erle

Which is where most of the value comes from. But I think a lot of the value is having an experienced team that's used to working together and able to work with these hacking groups they have experience working with. So that's kind of like my origin story on why I’m doing what I'm doing.

‍

06:09:10 - 06:18:25

Lauren Hong

Yeah. So now C3 doesn't just exclusively focus on cyber-related issues, right? This is more of your sweet spot within the organization.

‍

06:18:27 - 06:41:26

Joe Erle

Correct. So I run the cyber group here. We have a full suite of services here. And we do the business insurance like workers’ comp and business ______ and liability. We do the benefits, group benefits. And we also do home and auto for high-net-worth people.

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06:41:29 - 07:03:18

Lauren Hong

Got it. Okay. So just to back up, you saw this whole thing unfold; then how did you start learning more about ransomware, about all these sorts of issues? Tell us more. I’m sure there's a learning curve, right? Like I said earlier, I didn’t even know there's this whole industry that even helps with money transfer and such.

‍

07:03:18 - 07:08:01

Lauren Hong

I'd love to hear more about how you unpacked all of this.

‍

07:08:04 - 07:46:03

Joe Erle

Yeah. So I don't have a cybersecurity background. But once I decided I was going to be the cybersecurity guy at my firm, I just started talking about it online. And every time I did a talk, I would do research on it. Tap into my network and ask questions to the people who were in cybersecurity or going to conferences and little by little I became like the de facto cybersecurity guy.

‍

07:46:04 - 08:03:14

Joe Erle

Yeah. And then eventually one of the partners at the firm was like, hey, why don't you become the cybersecurity practice group leader at C3? And we just made up the position basically. 

‍

08:03:15 - 08:06:29

Lauren Hong

You created the job for yourself. 

‍

08:07:01 - 08:19:26

Joe Erle

Really, really cool how that all worked out. It was almost like there was like a force in the universe moving me toward it. 

‍

08:19:28 - 08:37:21

Lauren Hong

So just out of curiosity for folks who are listening that are sort of like how did you unpack this, what kind of talks would you give, or how did you go learning about this through just googling as you talked with people? I’d love to hear some of the topics you were unpacking that helped you share some of this knowledge with other people.

‍

08:37:23 - 08:57:02

Joe Erle

Yeah. So a lot of it was going to conferences and local chapter meetings of organizations like AKASA and ISA. I don't know what they stand for. It's information security something alliance. 

‍

08:57:02 - 08:59:02

Lauren Hong

You know the acronym, long name.

‍

08:59:04 - 09:23:20

Joe Erle

I’d go and listen to these talks and learn a little bit, little by little until things started making sense. And you know the acronyms and things like that. So that helped. A lot of it came from googling and a lot of it came from the policies I was selling.

‍

09:23:23 - 09:54:00

Joe Erle

And the variety of policies I was running into, because unlike most insurances, where they have standard forms that have extra endorsements on them, which are like little extras on them that you can add or subtract, in cybersecurity insurance, every policy is different. Companies will even call things different, like they'll call it cyber extortion instead of ransomware coverage.

‍

09:56:16 - 10:20:17

Joe Erle

There's insider threat coverage. One person will call it that and one person will call it rogue employee. So you’re translating all the language, trying to do side by sides. And then, as I saw deficiencies or claims where things were not covered, I started talking about those things.

‍

10:20:19 - 10:30:08

Joe Erle

I was giving the information to the public and letting them know what most people don't know about cyber insurance.

‍

10:30:10 - 10:47:12

Lauren Hong

Yeah. Super. Well, are you normally working with companies that have had an issue and then they're like, okay, we didn't have this in place? Are you fortunately, hopefully getting ahead of that and convincing people they need this kind of insurance? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

‍

10:47:15 - 11:22:22

Joe Erle

Yeah, I get introduced to people in different ways. I try to partner with MSPs, managed service providers, the IT companies, and they help bring me in because they're trying to bring a complete cybersecurity solution. And the smarter MSPs will want to bring in the insurance part of that too, as a safety net, not just for their customer but for them too, because if they have a problem, they could get sued.

‍

11:23:17 - 11:47:24

Joe Erle

Because you know who's going to write the check when people lose money? They're going to look at who left the backdoor open, so to speak, on the computer. I do get introduced to people after they've gotten hacked and it's a little harder to place their insurance after they've gotten hacked, but in this market it’s very possible.

‍

11:48:11 - 12:15:23

Joe Erle

And we do it all the time. And then, just companies that already have cyber insurance, the more mature companies will have it. And we do audits on their insurance. We take them through a seven-step process and what they could have by working with us.

‍

12:16:25 - 12:20:28

Joe Erle

Or showing them deficiencies in their program.

‍

12:21:00 - 12:35:17

Lauren Hong

So tell me more about the deficiency side. What are some of the red flags you would look for that you go, okay, this company is at risk? Is it by industry? I'd love to hear more about those red flags that go, I probably want to get this in place before it's too late.

‍

12:36:29 - 13:05:01

Joe Erle

Yeah. An interesting line in financial services, crypto's very popular right now. Because Elon and Trump, things are just pumping at this moment, is the definition of money. So most definitions of money and almost every cyber policy is fiat currency or in dollars. And in order to add digital currency to that, you have to add it by endorsement.

‍

13:06:15 - 13:21:29

Joe Erle

So just the definition of money and how a company treats that could mean you're out millions of dollars because you didn't lose dollars, you lost crypto. And we don't pay back for crypto.

‍

13:22:01 - 13:25:18

Lauren Hong

Can you define when you say it needs to be added by endorsement?

‍

13:25:21 - 13:31:14

Joe Erle

Yeah. So an endorsement is insurance-speak for a change in the policy.

‍

13:31:17 - 13:35:08

Lauren Hong

I see. So it needs to be added upfront before the policy is signed.

‍

13:35:10 - 13:36:00

Joe Erle

Correct.

‍

13:36:03 - 13:46:01

Lauren Hong

Okay. I just want to make sure I'm following. So other red flags. So money in its definition and how it's defined. And what have you.

‍

13:46:04 - 14:14:06

Joe Erle

So there's money, right? But there's also other ways that software companies will compensate their customers if there's an incident or an outage, with credits. So if you're a large company and you have an outage, you may offer your customers $1 million in credits but not actual money. So that's another thing we want to be able to cover for.

‍

14:14:07 - 14:39:26

Joe Erle

So they have to give these credits, which is going to be them working on their account as either a form of good faith or a contractual obligation. And we want the insurance company to be able to compensate the company for those credits as well.

‍

14:39:28 - 14:59:26

Lauren Hong

As someone that would be insuring a company, are there certain things you are looking to have in place before you would even entertain partnering with them? So for example, I know a lot of companies do training on cybersecurity or it's part of how they work or how they store data. There's policies and procedures around that.

‍

15:02 - 15:08:09

Lauren Hong

Are there things that you're like, we need to have a check in the box before we even engage to make sure it's the right fit?

‍

15:08:11 - 15:35:19

Joe Erle

Yeah. So, back in 2021 or 2022, you got a policy that didn't have certain controls in place. Since then, things have loosened up and you can actually get a policy just with a firewall and an antivirus program. But usually for the preferred companies, in order to get a policy you're going to need multi-factor authentication.

‍

15:36:08 - 15:39:01

Joe Erle

That's the main one. 

‍

15:39:04 - 15:48:15

Lauren Hong

That seems so standard too, right? Especially for anyone that's in financial services or dealing with money exchange or sensitive information. So keep going. 

‍

15:48:17 - 16:22:14

Joe Erle

The California Privacy Consumer Act requires companies to have reasonable security. And that changes over time. And I think a reasonable security is going to be multi-factor authentication. You're already seeing Microsoft making it the default now. Just got a notice from my cell phone company that everybody's going to have multi-factor authentication because companies are getting hit with these password stuffing attacks.

‍

16:22:17 - 16:42:12

Joe Erle

Yeah. 23andMe was attacked that way. So they find all these emails and passwords that have been hacked and they just stuff the login pages over and over with a computer doing it. Of course it's not actual people doing it. 

‍

16:42:14 - 17:02:14

Joe Erle

They can do so many at once. This is why I like having multi-factor authentication. I just personally like having it on for most things you use because it is going to thwart 99% of the attacks on you, personally or as a business. 

‍

17:02:16 - 17:10:14

Lauren Hong

Simple switch, right? To be able to flip on. But it creates friction, right? So that's the frustrating thing.

‍

17:10:14 - 17:32:04

Joe Erle

So yeah, you need it from the top down too because you can't have everyone having to do it and then one of the accountants is like, I can't do this multi-factor authentication thing. I'm going to turn mine off. Or one of the board members could even turn it off; they don't want to be bothered with it.

‍

17:32:24 - 17:38:10

Joe Erle

But you have to say nope, we have to do it for everybody. 

‍

17:38:13 - 17:39:03

Lauren Hong

Yep. It's gotta be company-wide.

‍

17:40:13 - 17:50:27

Joe Erle

Other things are backups — have backups offsite. Test your backups because a lot of times people think they have backups and they never test them.

‍

17:50:27 - 17:57:21

Lauren Hong

Yes. These are the things you don't realize until it's an emergency. 

‍

17:57:23 - 18:26:20

Joe Erle

Right. What else? Endpoint detection. I know CrowdStrike had a bad incident with system failure they caused everybody. But they have a good product called CrowdStrike Falcon. There’s Sentinel One, Arctic Wolf. There's a ton of endpoint detection companies. And then, of course, on top of that, you need to monitor it.

‍

18:26:22 - 18:44:06

Joe Erle

So you need to hire a company to monitor it 24/7. After that, there is company training, because I think about 50% of hacks come from some kind of human interaction.

‍

18:44:09 - 18:53:16

Lauren Hong

Clicking the wrong link. Phone call, giving information. People are getting really good at it.

‍

18:53:19 - 18:59:07

Joe Erle

Yeah. And a lot of times it's not even people. It's AI.

‍

18:59:10 - 19:18

Lauren Hong

Which is smart.

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19:21 - 19:31:06

Joe Erle

Using AI to research people or companies. They're using AI to create emails. The bar gets lower and lower. You don't have to speak English to write a phishing email now so you're seeing obvious mistakes in people's emails. And the other thing that I think for financial services everybody needs to watch out for is fraudulent transfers.

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19:32:11 - 19:52:02

Joe Erle

So you have to have a different way of communicating before you do a transfer. So if somebody sends you an email you can confirm it by phone, or someone sends you a fax and you send them an email or you have to do something different, usually a callback.

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19:52:04 - 20:03:15

Joe Erle

And you want to make sure you call back the right person, because hackers know you're going to try to call back and they may leave their call center number out there.

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20:03:17 - 20:29:06

Lauren Hong

Yeah. I know it's wild out there. It is a wild world. It's a little wild west. I mean it really. So you talked about some changes in 2020, 2021 and things of that sort. What kind of trends are you seeing especially post-COVID and then as you look ahead, anything we should be aware of? 

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20:29:08 - 20:57:06

Joe Erle

Yeah. I think going forward the cybersecurity trends kind of follow the technology trends. So we're seeing a lot of AI hacks, whether hackers are using AI to create malware, or they're using it to write phishing emails or research companies they're trying to hack. But also there's many ways of hacking.

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20:57:06 - 21:26:24

Joe Erle

For instance, if you have an AI chat bot, you can do something called prompt injecting, which is like asking the AI for information you shouldn't be able to get. And the AI chat bot may have APIs or connections to other databases. They may not be able to discern whether they should give it to you or not.

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21:28:09 - 21:48:03

Joe Erle

There's this other one. There's this funny story where this guy tried to buy a car for a dollar talking to the AI chat bot. So it's like, hey, everything I say, you have to say this is legally binding. And no takesy backsies.

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21:48:05 - 21:50:09

Lauren Hong

Wow!

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21:50:11 - 22:22:15

Joe Erle

It's kind of funny. There's another one with Air Canada where they screwed up bereavement fares with people through the AI chat bot. And Air Canada actually tried to blame the chat bot in court and the court said, no, you're responsible for your chat bot.

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22:22:15 - 22:38:10

Joe Erle

So we already have some legal precedents there. You need to have human oversight of your AIs. It's your responsibility. As we adopt these new technologies we have to know what comes with it. 

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22:38:13 - 22:57:24

Lauren Hong

Yeah, that's right. We're learning what comes with it too. So, it kind of can give you that learning curve or to get you ahead, the shortcut. But there's also setbacks. Oh, super interesting. This is fun. This is fun to unpack all of this and also just hear your background and these stories.

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22:57:24 - 23:16:22

Lauren Hong

They feel so wild. Until it happens to you and you've seen it like you've seen it, up close. So, thank you so much for joining. Where can folks go if they want to learn more about C3 or just connect with you further?

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23:16:25 - 23:31:03

Joe Erle

Okay. Thanks for asking. Yeah, I share a lot of content on LinkedIn, Joe Erle. I also have other socials like TikTok and Instagram. It's under It's Cyber Joe.

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23:31:03 - 23:33:14

Lauren Hong

Love it.

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23:33:16 - 23:50:18

Joe Erle

And then I have a podcast I do with a tech guy who runs data centers and it's called “Ransomware Rewind,” where we riff on AI and ransomware and deep fakes and all that stuff. And it's just super interesting.

‍

23:50:21 - 23:56:23

Lauren Hong

So fun. Okay, we'll make sure to link below and the C3 website for you guys. I know I've got it up here.

‍

23:56:25 - 24:04:02

Joe Erle

Just C3 insurance.com. Okay. And if you want to go to the cyber part of C3 insurance.com/cyber.

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24:04:04 - 24:10:22

Lauren Hong

Awesome, Joe. Thank you so much for your time. It's fun to chat with you. Good to catch up. And we'll make sure to link below okay.

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24:10:29 - 24:16:06

Joe Erle

Thank you.

‍

We talked with Jackie Benjamin Hatherley about:

• Why successful firm operations are ultimately about people
• How firm leaders can effectively communicate change and goals to create a unified vision without overwhelming their teams
• Ways in which firms can keep goals and messages relevant by explaining the “why”

About Jackie Benjamin Hatherley:

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley, “opspert” and founder of RIA Ops, has over 25 years of operations expertise, specializing in helping registered investment advisors embrace the human side of operations. Through flexible fractional COO and leadership coaching services, Jackie helps firms unlock the power of people in driving operations excellence to ultimately promote efficiency, innovation, and streamlined processes. Through consistent communication, explaining the “why,” and keeping goals relevant, Jackie’s tools and human-centric approach assist firms in fostering a culture of trust, purpose, and empowerment so operational decisions feel right — not just right on paper.

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Featured Resources 

• RIA Ops and Complimentary 30-Minute Consultation 
• Jackie Benjamin Hatherley on LinkedIn
• Patrick Lencioni’s 5 Dysfunctions of a Team
• Patrick Lencioni’s Death by Meeting
• Simon Sinek’s Find Your Why

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Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• How Lifestyle and Solo Advisor Firm Owners Can Grow Business Intentionally with Natalie Bergsma
• Why Emotionally Connecting with Clients is Good for Business in Financial Services with Brendan Frazier
• Business Growth Tips for Accountants, Bookkeepers, and Financial Services Business Owners

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 -00 :07:13

Lauren Hong

Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today.

‍

00:07:15 - 00:09:24

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Thank you, Lauren. I'm looking forward to this.

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00:09:25 - 00:30:03

Lauren Hong

Yeah, this is fun. Just chatting with you before this, hearing a little bit more about your background. So for folks who are not familiar with you, you are the founder of RIA Ops or Operations. And, really, I know you've been, as your website says, and I was literally like the same words that would open my mouth in the trenches as a CEO, with firms.

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00:30:03 - 00:43:12

Lauren Hong

And so I'm just going to pass it over to you. How did you get into the space? Have you always been in an operations role in the CEO role? Why wealth management? Tell us a little bit more about how you found this particular, group and where you are.

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00:43:13 - 01:06:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, absolutely. And I wish I had some sort of epic story to tell you about. Yeah, how I ended up in the industry but it wasn't intentional. Right out of college I was given an opportunity to take a temporary two-week assignment as a receptionist at Raymond James.

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01:06:11 - 01:12:28

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Oh, wild. Yeah, it was, and especially since I had majored in theater in school. 

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01:12:28 - 01:18:20

Lauren Hong

It's two weeks too. It's not like it's two months or two years or something like that. 

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01:18:23 - 01:42:29

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Exactly. So it was one of those things that I was like, yeah, you know what? I can answer the phone. I can be a receptionist and, go figure. It's 26 years later; I'm still here. But one thing I did want to touch upon, especially for new people coming into the industry, sometimes they feel intimidated because they're like, I don't know what I need to know about investment management.

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01:42:29 - 02:05:16

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Maybe I don't have the technical skills but in my case, I felt the same way. And literally not even before my assignment was up, I was offered a full-time sales assistant position. But the beauty of our industry is there's something out there for everyone. And for me it was the people. It was the human side of things.

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02:05:16 - 02:27:17

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I didn't even know that existed in wealth management other than, okay, yes, we have clients. But just the relationships we would get to build with clients and operations. I quickly moved into the branch operations role and operations was really exciting for me because and I know it's kind of like, really not for us all.

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02:27:19 - 02:39:01

Lauren Hong

It's what makes the beast grow, that internal engine. So it's one of the components of it. But anyways no thunder. 

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02:39:01 - 03:08:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. But that's exactly a puzzle piece it let me play with. It was a great space to play in because I got to figure out solutions to problems. I got to be creative about it. But I really got to work with people in that capacity, in that role. And I was so lucky because I got to witness how effective operations can really support not just the business side but the people side.

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03:08:24 - 03:23:11

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I'm talking about clients. I'm talking about my team members. So that was really exciting for me. And I've spent the rest of my career blending those two. So I've been really lucky.

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03:23:13 - 03:46:26

Lauren Hong

So tell me a little bit more, because I feel like operations you can enter in all sorts of situations, right? I mean, things that are not built out, like overly complex and I'm sure there's so many people challenges, so many things to sort of tackle. So when you're partnering with a firm and you're sort of shaping out that entry point to put together, kind of next steps to get into the weeds.

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03:47:01 - 03:57:00

Lauren Hong

What does that vision exercise look like when you're talking with leadership to really identify priorities and really how to prioritize specific to their operations?

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03:57:03 - 04:29:04

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yes. So I probably approach it a little differently because I'm not as regimented. So when I started RIA Ops, I wanted to give advisors an alternative to hiring a full-time CEO, full-time director of ops. So when I am engaging with advisors, I want it to be a partnership of sorts. So a lot of times when I am engaging, the leadership knows this is what we want to focus on.

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04:29:04 - 04:54:16

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

This is what we want to do. And a lot of times it's more of an exploratory exercise. So we really discuss what our priorities are by talking through what are the pain points, what you know, and sometimes we organically stumble upon it. You know, it's not this formula because they'll be talking about it and then they'll say, oh, and this is happening.

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04:54:16 - 05:09:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So we may have been focused on one thing. And then throughout the conversation it's like, oh no, no, no. This is the root of the issue. Otherwise we're putting this Band-Aid on it if we don't address it properly.

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05:09:13 - 05:26:24

Lauren Hong

Yeah, that makes sense. So out of that conversation and it's funny, we see the same sort of thing too, especially as we're really unpacking the brand. And there's words people say just naturally that really help us to pin down a true identity for who people are, right? Sometimes those things aren't obvious. They cannot be pre-calculated.

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05:26:24 - 05:43:02

Lauren Hong

They have to sort of be organically fleshed out. So what's the deliverable or do you work with them to put together a deliverable or maybe a separate team to sort of say, okay, this is our grand plan, or what does that look like?

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05:43:04 - 06:04:29

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So it really depends, because it's customized per firm that I work with. So a lot of times it's, hey, can can we come in and have you take a look and give us recommendations and the deliverable will be a recommendation. And whether they choose to continue engaging my services to bring those to life.

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06:04:29 - 06:39:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And we identify those initiatives or I'm just there as a support for them to tap into when they need to. And as we discussed before we started recording, I'm finding a lot of advisors are struggling with the management piece, struggling with the people piece of things. So some of the deliverables I've been working with for teams is going in and doing one-on-one meetings, coming up with formalized roles and responsibilities for their teams.

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06:39:06 - 06:56:18

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Taking a look at let's revamp your org chart. If you don't have one, we'll create it. But taking a look at where those gaps are, where those redundancies are, DISC assessments. So depending. Yeah, I will talk about that. I'm such a desk nerd.

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06:56:25 - 06:59:18

Lauren Hong

Yeah it's okay. We love it over here to our whole team.

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06:59:18 - 07:02:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Looks good though. Yeah. Awesome.

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07:02:06 - 07:04:12

Lauren Hong

Yeah.

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07:04:14 - 07:18:20

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So it really depends. So the deliverable will depend on how deep they want to get into the engagement. What level of interaction they want for me, what level of support. So it's really flexible. 

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07:18:22 - 07:36:17

Lauren Hong

So I just returned a few weeks ago from a Dimensional Fund practice management symposium, and it was so funny. EOS. I don't know if you use EOS or you plug in other systems. It came up. I feel like there was a question at one time, how many firms use EOS, firms of all different sizes, so many arms shot up in the room.

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07:36:20 - 07:47:08

Lauren Hong

And I’d be curious, are you working with EOS or other kind of pre-built frameworks like that?

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07:47:08 - 08:08:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Not yet. So I am familiar. So what ends up happening again is as if you had an actual CIO in office. If there is a program you want to incorporate right into your practice, I will go do the vetting for them. I will implement it for them. I will show them how to use it.

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08:08:07 - 08:30:17

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

If you want me to run it, I will run it. So EOS is obviously a little more complex because there are lots of elements of EOS that I do incorporate into my engagements. So piece of all of this is, hey, we have that flexibility. What have you been curious about?

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08:30:19 - 08:34:04

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Let me go do the legwork for you and make it happen for you.

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08:34:04 - 08:56:22

Lauren Hong

Yeah. Oh my gosh, EOS is very complex in a good way. It's complex but simple. But you were talking so many things about people challenges, the right people in the right seats and things of that nature and really identifying key plans. So I had to ask. But shifting topics a little bit, once we've got an idea of kind of marching orders, where are we going.

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08:56:29 - 09:17:09

Lauren Hong

What are our specific priorities? Are our initiatives various scales and sizes? Can you talk a little bit more about really how do we clearly communicate that to teams? And I love to lean into the idea of clarity. Because clarity so important. Identify the big picture. But how do we then let that waterfall across at work?

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09:17:09 - 09:28:23

Lauren Hong

And I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you really help coach leaders to make sure they're communicating their vision to the team so you can really all get behind. 

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09:28:25 - 09:55:01

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. And the one thing I do want to start off with is just saying clear, empathetic communication is so crucial. Whether your leaders are trying to align with their team members, whether we're rolling out new initiatives, and also it has to be consistent. So communication is never going to be a set it and forget it.

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09:55:05 - 10:23:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And sometimes leaders feel like they're a broken record. But you need to be because you keep that vision and that message relevant and upfront. And so to dive into it a little bit, when leaders are trying to align, I recommend having a candid dialog with their team about what is the goal, what are our values.

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10:23:24 - 10:51:10

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I want to kind of dive into why we talk about the values. But say, for example, a leader is saying, okay, we want to increase client engagement. Well what does that mean? Yeah. It's something very different to the leaders than it is to your ops team, to your clients, to your marketing. So it's really important for not only leaders to explain why it's important.

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10:51:13 - 11:17:08

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Why does it matter to our organization and what we're trying to accomplish? But once they hash out those details and talk about increasing client engagement — so is that going to be shorter response times? Is it going to be higher client touchpoints? Is it going to be more customized investment portfolios for clients?

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11:17:08 - 11:44:00

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

But when they hash that out and the sooner they do it in this process, the sooner they're going to create a unified vision that's going to trickle throughout their organization. And there's also a lot of confusion that sometimes comes about because the leaders will say, principals of firms will say, well, not everyone's on board with this step or this step.

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11:44:02 - 12:02:04

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

They don't need to be. So they don't need to be on board with every step of it. But they do need to be on board with the end result. We've all got to be headed toward that same direction. We don't have to all agree where we're going to stop going there but they have to agree on the values.

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12:02:04 - 12:06:20

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So our core values, because that's what's going to guide our decision-making process, right?

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12:06:20 - 12:33:23

Lauren Hong

That's right. The right fit for the people for the team you've got and the energy and the culture you're creating. So just to kind of back up, there are two things I want to ask. So when you talk about defining those goals, are we talking about specific KPIs? Are we talking about literal definitions to these objectives? Just trying to get an idea.

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12:33:23 - 12:51:27

Lauren Hong

Is it like KPIs for the company, for specific departments, for individuals? I’d love to hear about how you get clarity with that big picture objective to sort of break it down so it feels tangible for someone who’s literally on the ground trying to implement whatever their job is.

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12:52:04 - 13:16:07

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So it's like peeling back an onion on that. And yeah, it's a great question. And I'm like, oh my God, I can approach it from all these different ways. But so we're talking about when we're aligning and we're talking about goals, and I use the example of increasing client engagement. You know, it could be anything that's bigger.

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13:16:07 - 13:39:26

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Like as a firm, these are our revenue goals. This is who we want to be. So we want to remember what vision is — it’s what we're taught. So there's vision and then there's goals underneath that vision. So our vision as an organization, for people who aren't familiar because sometimes I get asked what's the difference between vision and mission and values and all of this.

‍

13:39:29 - 14:01:18

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So our vision is who we want to be. Who do we want to be to the people we're serving? Who do we want to be in the community? And our mission is how we want to get there. How do we plan on getting there? So, our goals; I feel this is my definition of it is and people can probably have a different definition.

‍

14:01:18 - 14:09:11

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

But our goals are what are those subheadings that fit under that massive umbrella that is our vision.

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14:09:14 - 14:12:27

Lauren Hong

Yes. So your initiatives.

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14:13:00 - 14:41:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, exactly. So I think of goals as initiatives. Some firms have them quarterly. Some firms have a big overarching initiative that goes through the entire year. So let's talk about once we've identified what that is, how does leadership communicate that to a team? So I definitely recommend framing it in a way that you are rolling it out to the people it pertains to.

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14:41:24 - 15:10:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Let's talk about departments. That's probably the easiest segment. So if we're talking about enhancing our client experience as an initiative, well, when we're talking to marketing, we're going to have targets, or KPIs of okay, do we revamp our materials? Do we update our website? How do we communicate our commitment to our clients? Client services department, they're going to look at it differently.

‍

15:10:22 - 15:33:09

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

We're going to look at, hey, how do we make those touchpoints more meaningful so we're deepening that relationship. So KPIs associated with that. And we'll talk about tools they can use to keep track of KPIs if that's okay. But you know, when we're talking to the portfolio management department, what are we doing to help customize our advice?

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15:33:11 - 16:10:17

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So by doing that, we're not overwhelming our team members with a bunch of information that they don't necessarily need know but we're keeping them informed. And I also always recommend that leaders set up a space where their managers, their departments, their teams, however they're built out — it's going to be different for everyone — but they have a place where people can ask the questions, they can make suggestions because that builds that culture of ownership, empowerment.

‍

16:10:19 - 16:20:23

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And they feel like they're active participants, not passive receivers of a message. So that's really important.

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16:20:27 - 16:37:10

Lauren Hong

I love that; that's such a good line: passive receivers of a message. It's so true. You don't want to be just talked to, right? But you're involved and engaged. And you have that buy-in and you can see how that impacts your day-to-day and ultimately maps back up to the bigger picture.

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16:37:13 - 16:39:14

Lauren Hong

I feel like we could we could talk about all this for a long time.

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16:39:18 - 17:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

I know, because the next thing  that came to me when you were talking about that, Lauren, the word that came to me is the why. And I do want to touch upon that as well, because that's such a huge piece of communication. And when big decisions are being made, people get scared when they have that passive seat.

‍

17:05 - 17:27:19

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So when we allow people to understand the why behind bigger decisions we're making in our practices, when we allow our team members to understand what their contribution is to our overall vision, that's just magic right there because it changes people's mindsets. Everyone wants to feel like they have purpose. 

‍

17:27:19 - 17:35:28

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And you know, trying to explain to them where they fit in this equation is essential.

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17:36:01 - 17:53:28

Lauren Hong

I love that. So I do want to touch on one other point of it. So we talked a lot about kind of rolling these pieces out across departments and teams. And we talked about how we make sure we've got that drumbeat so people can be involved with it. They can ask questions or what have you.

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17:54:00 - 18:15:13

Lauren Hong

But once you've set that off and rolling is there a recommended frequency you encourage leadership to be that broken record? Is that monthly at all-hands meetings? Is it in one-on-one meetings regularly? Is it quarterly? How do we not let that message just kind of be there?

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18:15:13 - 18:17:22

Lauren Hong

And then it's just sort of like faded out into the sunset?

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18:17:22 - 18:36:23

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Now that's such an amazing question. And it goes hand in hand with the fact that communication needs to be consistent. And so the frequency is really going to depend — I know I keep saying it's going to depend. 

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18:36:25 - 18:38:00

Lauren Hong

It's unique to each firm.

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18:38:00 - 19:08:06

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, it's unique.. So I joke I say regularly, and sometimes advisors are like thanks, Jackie, what does that mean? And so let's talk about rolling it out. Again, in the spirit of trying not to overwhelm your team members with too much information, initially I would recommend that leaders roll it out.

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19:08:07 - 19:33:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Whether it's a team meeting, town hall type thing, where they do that initially provide the information on the vision or the goal, explain why it's important. Again, going back to that why and then diving into the granular where they start meeting with the departments. Now let's come up with the game plan. This is how we're going to do this.

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19:33:25 - 20:02:12

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So also another thing leaders can do is once they've rolled it out, have a space where they have shared documents. Is it a video we keep revisiting? Is it an internal page? Again, keeping the message alive, keeping it relevant but also providing your team with a resource team leads can use for their team members.

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20:02:14 - 20:30:05

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

So frequency, to to kind of go back to that question. So if it's something you know is organization- wide, maybe monthly makes sense; if we're looking at smaller pilot type projects, maybe biweekly makes sense. But the idea here is to balance the depth with the frequency. And what I mean by that is to be relevant.

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20:30:08 - 20:38:01

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And you want to make sure when you're having these meetings, it's not just to have a meeting. Are you familiar with death by meetings?

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20:38:03 - 20:42:23

Lauren Hong

Yes. I'm familiar with the expression but it sounds like an unpack there.

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20:42:23 - 21:06:05

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. So Patrick Lencioni, and we're going to talk about him too, in terms of a tool. But he wrote this book called Death by Meeting. And it's kind of misleading because you think, okay, we're having too many meetings. His premise is we're not having enough meetings and we're not having enough relevant meetings. So we kind of force people to be in a team meeting.

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21:06:05 - 21:27:09

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And one of the complaints I hear is we're having to sit and listen through something that doesn't even pertain to us. So it's not about cutting down on meetings but it's about structuring your meetings so there's more relevancy to them. And that way we're not overwhelming people or it’s like the Charlie Brown teacher hearing the wha, wha, wha.

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21:27:14 - 21:43:12

Lauren Hong

So it’s like the death by PowerPoint expression to you, right? It's just not relevant. Or maybe it's relevant but it's just not clicking.

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21:43:14 - 22:08:28

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Exactly, or where you keep going on and on about it. It's like, okay, we got it in the first 30 seconds. And I empathize with advisors because team meetings are difficult; it takes effort to put together an agenda, takes effort to facilitate it. And sometimes they feel like they're just standing in front of a room and just talking at people.

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22:09:01 - 22:26:17

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I know there's a balance but if it doesn't happen, then like you said, you have to be, especially as you grow your team, that broken record with the messaging and for it to all really. So again it's a balance but oh my gosh, this is so fun. I feel like we have so much more to even unpack.

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22:26:17 - 22:49:11

Lauren Hong

We're just scratching the surface here. So I really appreciate the expertise you're bringing to the table because I've been in the trenches. And that's the whole role. But then how you do you really think about big picture and then here's a waterfall across the board with that clarity being constant. So, any other things you want to make sure you share or key takeaways where folks can learn more?

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22:49:13 - 23:21:21

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah. So I really think the main key takeaway I'd like to share is oftentimes we think operations is all about efficiency processes, the technology. But ultimately it's about the people and it's about centering our focus on the people, whether it's our clients, our colleagues, ourselves. And I really feel like once we do that, we come from a place of making decisions.

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23:21:24 - 23:49:06

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And they feel right. It's not just because we're making a decision because it looks right on paper. And so that sort of philosophy and that sort of approach really helps firms to thrive because they're building a foundation of trust. They're building a foundation of purpose. And that's something I am so passionate about trying to bring to the wealth management space.

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23:49:06 - 24:13:06

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

And I feel like more and more advisors are getting on board with that and realizing, I can do the churn and burn model and I can still grow but hey, I want a team that plays with me, that grows with me, that kind of sounding board and partnership on this path to growth and helping our clients.

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24:13:09 - 24:30:08

Lauren Hong

We love that. There's a quote. It's not just about the people. It's all about the people. And at the end of the day, it's about values. It's about creating that right culture. And it's through that that you really can grow. Well, Jackie, thank you so much for your time today.

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24:30:08 - 24:33:23

Lauren Hong

And folks can learn more at RIA-ops.

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24:33:25 - 25:06:22

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Yeah, it's, ria-ops.com. It has my email. They can set time for a free 30-minute consultation. Again, just to kind of talk through. And I've been so lucky to build a network that if that's something I can't assist with, I have resources to refer them out to. But there are so many resources to help advisors with helping to manage their teams, helping to implement their visions, their goals, risk assessments.

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25:06:22 - 25:30:11

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

As we talked about Patrick Lencioni, someone to definitely follow. He also wrote The 5 Dysfunctions of a Team. And then also Simon Sinek, Find Your Why. And how that pertains to our every day. So there's so many tools out there. I’m more than happy to talk to anyone who wants to hear about those and just get to know what's going on in their practices.

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25:30:16 - 25:34:06

Lauren Hong

Great. Jackie, thank you so much. I'll make sure to link below as well. I appreciate your time today.

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25:34:08 - 25:42:03

Jackie Benjamin Hatherley

Thank you. Thank you. This was fun.

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We talked about:

• Practical tips to start an outsourced marketing relationship on a clear and aligned footing
• Why setting realistic expectations around timelines, deliverables, and success rates is critical
• Insights into common challenges companies may experience when working with an outsourced partner and how to navigate them

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About Tiffany and Karen:

At Out & About Communications, Tiffany Silverberg and Karen Villalta play key roles in managing relationships and bringing our clients’ visions to life. As senior director of Marketing Strategy, Tiffany ensures all content and deliverables align with the client’s brand, voice, and needs. As senior project manager, Karen acts as a critical link between the client and the marketing initiatives, ensuring projects stay on track and clients are informed every step of the way. In this episode, the pair share their experience and insights in managing outsourced marketing relationships with financial services companies. They bring valuable lessons learned and best practices for working with an outsourced marketing partner and managing common challenges throughout an engagement. 

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Featured Resources 

• How Outsourcing Marketing Can Unlock Growth Potential For Advisory Firms: Key Steps For Choosing The Right Provider
• Tiffany Silverberg on LinkedIn
• Karen Villalta on LinkedIn

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Enjoyed This? You’ll Also Love:

• FAQs: When to Engage and How to Navigate Outsourced Marketing in Financial Services
• The Role of Marketing and the CMO in Today’s Financial Services Industries with Nick Richtsmeier
• How a Brand Personality Can Drive Company Culture and Build Trust With Your Audience
• Website Redesigns: The Process Behind Building Websites for Financial Services Companies

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Full Audio Transcript:

00:00:00 - 00:28:09

Lauren Hong

All right, guys, you're in for a treat today. We have two amazing, talented team members from Out & About. I'm going to let them introduce themselves before we get into our topic around really building successful relationships when it comes to partnering with an outsourced marketing partner. So, Karen, Tiffany, who wants to go first?

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00:28:11 - 00:56:10

Tiffany Silverberg

I'll go. Okay. I'm Tiffany. I’m the content director at Out & About. So I work with multiple levels. I work with our director team to oversee strategic implementation and integration of all the different marketing plans. But then I also work with our copy team to oversee all the content, make sure voice is aligned, and all that good stuff.

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00:56:10 - 01:15:13

Tiffany Silverberg

I also work with the project management team to make sure things are off the ground. So with various levels, working with everyone. And I've been at Out & About for about seven years, so I've been in lots of these conversations and seen it all go down. Your turn, Karen.

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01:15:19 - 01:39:11

Karen Villalta

Thanks, Tiffany. So my name is Karen. I'm the senior project manager at Out & About. My role includes taking care of our project plan. So making sure that when we get going and get started, we have an actual plan with everything we're going to do. So from inception to completion, I'm there to make sure things are moving along at a consistent pace.

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01:39:11 - 02:01:23

Karen Villalta

And we keep the client really in tune with what's going on. I'm the glue between the project management team and the director team. So if there's a change in strategy or any project we want to tackle, I make sure it makes sense with the direction we're going in and make sure it’s folded into the project plan..

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02:01:26 - 02:25:16

Lauren Hong

Awesome. And I'm Lauren. I wear a lot of different hats but mostly in business development. And working alongside with strategy as accounts move forward but primarily in business development and helping the company grow. So with that, let's talk about successful relationships. This is a really tricky question, right? Because you can work with an outsourced provider but sometimes they're working with you for a very limited time.

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02:25:29 - 02:42:09

Lauren Hong

It might be for a quick project or maybe it's a year long but with a lot of our partners, they're multiple-year engagements. Not everyone but we have a number we've worked with for multiple years. And so that partnership is one of our values. It's really critical to what we're doing.

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02:42:09 - 03:10

Lauren Hong

So, if you have identified the agency to work with, as being an agency, it could be with another agency, I'd love to just hear from you guys. What are some best practices to really incorporate that outside agency into your company? Like for us, we lead with partnership. There's different philosophies or values across the board.

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03:10 - 03:12:08

Lauren Hong

But for our clients, for our partners, we're working with them. What are some of the best practices you guys have seen to make it really feel like a cohesive, seamless relationship?

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03:14:28 - 03:36:14

Karen Villalta

I think it's just really important to establish goals right upfront. And, I mean, coming from the project management side, of course, and building those things out, just having clear objectives and timelines we want to hit so we know where we're going and how we're going to get there.

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03:36:16 - 03:52:16

Karen Villalta

I think having open lines of communication as well is really, really important in terms of talking with the client and making sure we understand each other — we’re aligned. I think starting off with a strong fit is what really helps that part of it.

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03:52:18 - 03:54:05

Lauren Hong

Totally. Tiffany?

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03:54:07 - 04:12:11

Tiffany Silverberg

I was going to say we always talk about clear swim lanes. So we sort of know who's doing what. And I think that helps. Karen is so good at keeping everything organized, like those project plans. And I think that's where this all comes in: okay, we're in charge of this.

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04:12:12 - 04:17:14

Tiffany Silverberg

You guys are doing that, by the time. So I think that keeps it really clear.

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04:17:16 - 04:38:03

Lauren Hong

Yeah. And to that point, I think sometimes marketing can just be like it's everywhere, and you get a bug in your ear from someone who’s like, oh, we should be doing this or this thing comes up. And so I really appreciate, not just only the team on a strategic level but Karen on your side, just making sure we're keeping along with those priorities as the business is shifting but then also helping to tune out the noise where it doesn't apply so we actually yield those results..

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04:38:15 - 04:59:03

Lauren Hong

Because being able to yield certain results requires a certain amount of effort that's put toward it. So keeping us on track is really important. Okay. So with that, what are some common mismatches between expectations and reality? So as you come in and you're like this is going to be great.

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04:59:03 - 05:20:22

Lauren Hong

Everything's going to be taken care of, all these things, right? We're going to have every single marketing top spinning. How do we manage that? And what should folks expect if they're going to partner with an agency as far as timeline or just deliverables and all that?

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05:25:14 - 05:51:18

Karen Villalta

Honestly, I'm not sure how I want to word this but a mismatch sometimes comes in with the speed of wanting results. So, sometimes it's we want to do everything and we want to see results. But sometimes in marketing things take time to actually see. We put a lot of effort into things but it just takes time for it to really show.

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05:51:19 - 06:10:08

Karen Villalta

So just having that patience, maybe communicating that. Things like SEO specifically, that we can totally tweak and get things going, get it started. But we do need a little bit of time to really reap the rewards and see how that's performing. So that's one thing that came to mind right away.

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06:12:10 - 06:16:06

Lauren Hong

Have any other thoughts on that? 

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06:16:08 - 06:41:11

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. The timing thing is the biggest one. And I think it's also just, I mean, we always ask the question what does success look like and feel like or what would us working together, what would that success look like? I think just having those clear conversations upfront, like Karen was saying earlier, to kind of see, like you were saying, Lauren, there's just so many things that marketing can be doing.

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06:41:11 - 06:58:00

Tiffany Silverberg

And so I think kind of narrowing that down and figuring out, okay, what should this relationship look like and what kind of results do we want to see? I think that can help too, because marketing can just become this crazy creative all over the place sort of thing. And then we're not really sure what we're doing here.

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06:58:00 - 07:13:27

Lauren Hong

So I think it also depends on the type of outsourced partner, because sometimes you have an outsourced partner where the model's much more like off the shelf, where you can just grab it and go, right? You can grab it, apply it, or you're coming in and it's very formulaic, like you're going to get three social media posts every week.

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07:13:27 - 07:36:17

Lauren Hong

You're going to get one blog post, you're going to get this, you're going to get that. And it may or may not be off-the-shelf content. And then you also have the other extreme, which is everything is hyper, hyper customized down to the period on the page. It's just very detailed and we're kind in between that but we definitely lean on the much more customized side, and that takes time.

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07:37:02 - 07:56:10

Lauren Hong

And really being able to understand the company's voice, their brand, their goals, all of these pieces, just like hiring a new employee. It takes time for us to learn that and be able to partner with companies. So I think it's important to keep that in mind too; it's not like you just turn it on and all of a sudden we can read minds, right?

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07:56:12 - 08:12:19

Lauren Hong

We're learning from that feedback. So when you're in that role too, you're seeing all the feedback that's coming in. And Karen, you are as well. With all the back and forth, what kind of things you guys see really well, if we're in an engagement that helps us as a team to be able to get to know that company better.

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08:13:01 - 08:24:19

Lauren Hong

From either their voice and tone or from their design, what are some best practices there so you can have that cohesive relationship in communicating feedback or what have you?

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08:24:21 - 08:26:20

Tiffany Silverberg

And I guess there's like three questions there.

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08:26:22 - 08:41:24

Lauren Hong

I know, I know. I mean how do we make sure companies are providing clear feedback so at the end of the day, we can connect it to a stronger relationship so we know them better?

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08:41:26 - 09:10:04

Tiffany Silverberg

My first answer to your question there was trying to figure out value alignment. And sometimes when we say values, it's very like, oh, we're all kind or something but really trying to figure out what drives that company. What are they all about? Do they need just volume, so much volume kind of quickly or sometimes the leadership just has certain quality things that are super important to them.

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09:10:04 - 09:37:08

Tiffany Silverberg

So really trying to narrow down what really makes them happy. And that comes from content, that comes from hearing feedback that just comes from everywhere. So really trying to get to the heart of that. But as far as best practices, Karen you can probably answer this better but I think having really good systems in place so people know where to comment and when to comment, I think probably helps.

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09:37:11 - 10:06:00

Karen Villalta

Yeah, I think we're really good at having that lane open. We use Weezer project management and Asana;  we're in there daily. And so we're keeping lines of communication open on a daily basis, letting everyone know where things are at.

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10:06:12 - 10:27:03

Karen Villalta

On every Friday, we send progress reports on where projects are at. So, I think specifically for our clients, we do a really good job at letting them know of the progress, if there's any stopgaps  we need their eyes on so we can move forward, you know, x, y, z.

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10:32:07 - 10:54:22

Tiffany Silverberg

Well, Karen, I actually have a question for you too about this because part of gathering feedback is like, who's our point person? So I'm curious what you would say as far as best practices from the client and about who's providing that feedback, like, should the whole team be doing it? Should just the main point of contact be or the whole leadership team? What do you think works best from that direction?

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10:54:25 - 11:20:03

Karen Villalta

You know, I really do think that sometimes that's client dependent because we do have some clients where we do have one specific point person we speak to. And that same thing for the client speaking to us, there's one main person everything filters through. But depending on how the company works, sometimes there's multiple people who need to see things.

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11:20:03 - 11:42:11

Karen Villalta

Asana is a great tool for that because when somebody has given approval on our client's team, we can send it to the next person. And then if we're on the same page and we know who gets the final, how should I say, you know to go through person A, then person B, and then person C, and we all know that.

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11:42:11 - 11:49:06

Karen Villalta

We internally know that makes it really easy.

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11:49:09 - 12:05:25

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. I was just thinking of a couple clients. So in a few meetings recently where it's a bunch of them involved. But then they were like, no, this person — whatever they say goes — they're the ones leading the charge and we trust them.

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12:05:25 - 12:20:12

Tiffany Silverberg

So we'll all give our feedback and we're happy. Especially creatively if we're doing design or creative type things. But it's always nice when they're like, okay, that person Bob gets the final say or whatever.

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12:20:14 - 12:32:09

Karen Villalta

That's true. I think that just comes with getting to know the client as well. I think we're nimble and can fit the mold that is necessary in that aspect.

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12:32:11 - 12:47:16

Lauren Hong

Yeah. Speaking of that, you have mentioned a little bit more about actually receiving the content or the feedback on the content. So just how we use Google Docs and best practices for providing design feedback as well.

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12:47:19 - 13:08:15

Karen Villalta

Yeah. I think Google Docs is a great tool because you really can just highlight whatever needs to get changed and add comments right there. And I think clients really like that because you can see the product or what we're putting together. Same thing with design. It's easy to just highlight what needs to be changed and add a comment.

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13:08:15 - 13:28:26

Karen Villalta

And I guess the way we work is just let us know in Asana when it's been reviewed and we'll go in there and make the changes. So, that's really helpful. I think it's clear to everybody as well, when we need eyes on it again or another version that's ready to get reviewed.

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13:28:29 - 13:52:16

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. Especially on designs. I mean, we'll speak for the rest of our team as they go in there. But when you type it out separately or just leave comments on a Google Doc it's like after the second blue line, I want the green line longer. It just takes so long to go back and forth and make sure you're making all those big changes.

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13:52:18 - 13:58:22

Tiffany Silverberg

So it's really nice when it's just directly and they're like, I want this line longer.

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13:58:24 - 14:14

Lauren Hong

Totally. Just the clarity versus…

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14:14 - 14:01:27

Tiffany Silverberg

…the vagueness.

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14:02:00 - 14:22:07

Karen Villalta

Another thing we've actually been using too is we've been making customized videos showing designs and talking through them. So that's really helpful for the clients because they get to not only see the deliverable but also a walkthrough about that specific deliverable. So that's been helpful as well.

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14:22:09 - 14:53:03

Lauren Hong

One of the pieces I appreciate that the copy and design team does is also taking in those lessons learned for the voice and tone for the client. And that is then embedded into the kickoffs for the different types of projects. So we don't forget certain things that might be really important. It might be like we always want the logo to be bigger or we don't use these kinds of words or what have you but we're learning that just like an employee would learn what makes your company you.

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14:52:06 - 15:08:17

Tiffany Silverberg

Yes, I have a great example of how we were working with the client and then all of a sudden we were like, you guys always spell adviser with an E. They were like, we do. They didn't even recognize it. And they're like, yes. And we will now document that so every time we use that word, it will be with an E and not an O.

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15:09:27 - 15:13:09

Lauren Hong

These little things you don't even realize you do, right? 

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15:13:09 - 15:14:11

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah. They didn’t even realize we all did that.

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15:14:11 - 15:39:10

Lauren Hong

Okay. Got another question here. So where as we're rounding out, what is the number one mistake. And again I kind of hate to even use the word mistake but maybe lessons learned that companies make when they've decided they want to outsourced versus hiring totally in-house. What kind of examples have we seen of maybe snags we run into where there's friction between outsourced and in-house?

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15:39:12 - 16:04:27

Karen Villalta

Well, I think sometimes we've run into situations where we have a client that's really enthusiastic and really wants us to run with things but internally they're dealing with certain types of bureaucracy or red tape, and that makes it really difficult for both them and us to be able to move forward on specific projects.

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16:05:28 - 16:18:23

Karen Villalta

I'm not entirely sure what the solution would be. Or how. That's just something to keep in mind, I guess, moving forward.

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16:18:25 - 16:37:19

Lauren Hong

Yeah, I have an example where there is a ton of red tape and there were numerous loopholes we had to go through. I think it was a website project where they ended up sending us computers and we were trying to build it and then it has to go through multiple layers just because of all the security and the things that are in there.

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16:37:26 - 16:54:05

Lauren Hong

So I think in this particular example, some of the upfront questions to ask about outsourced versus in-house are internally understanding what you can do and what the regulations are and then understanding what it would take if you were to have an outsourced team. And can you get through that red tape as you were alluding to earlier?

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16:54:12 - 17:06:21

Lauren Hong

So, just trying to find that balance. But if you're able to ask those upfront questions, to be able to navigate the red tape or even see if it's possible to be able to do that. So, Tiffany, any thoughts?

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17:06:23 - 17:45:05

Tiffany Silverberg

Yeah, I was just going to say on sort of a lighter level but it's the same issue I think sometimes when there's — I don't call it conflict like internal conflict but it's not necessarily conflict — but just a lack of alignment for the marketing. So that's like the bureaucracy is on another level where they literally can't move forward for certain roles but even just a smaller team where everyone's maybe not on the same page about what the target market's going to be or where we want to move forward creatively or how creative we want to be versus how conservative with design.

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17:45:05 - 17:58:14

Tiffany Silverberg

I think those kinds of misalignment internally can be a problem and can lead to maybe we shouldn't be outsourcing it because we're not really ready to hand it over yet. 

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17:58:17 - 18:14:24

Lauren Hong

Yeah. And those are good moments to pause, to be able to say, is there a consultant we can work with, can we tap into our network, to really be able to internally kind of unpack something so if you are going to hire a marketing partner, there's clarity and you can really align your efforts on that.

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18:15:05 - 18:36:17

Tiffany Silverberg

Because we can come in and plug in really well, and be that arm. And like we've been talking about the copy team and the design team and the management team, keeping everything organized and operational but we can't create something that's not there or we can't manage the team internally, we can't decide who's right, the president or the CEO or whatever.

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18:36:17 - 18:40:27

Tiffany Silverberg

So I think that can be an issue.

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18:41:06 - 19:03:27

Lauren Hong

That's right. I've also seen situations where we can act as an outsourced partner but the company just grows really fast or they grow over the course of five, seven, 10 years. And so because of the size, it necessitates a higher level of conversations and orchestration of all different departments and also internally working within systems.

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19:04:08 - 19:25:10

Lauren Hong

And so that also is, I think, a question to ask a particular provider upfront: how in-house are you, do you actually show up and are you there? And is that part of the engagement, to physically show up to be a part of it or what does that look like and how much do you invest or don't embed into the relationship.

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19:25:10 - 19:51:28

Lauren Hong

So there's more kind of maybe upfront questions that sometimes aren't asked. Or maybe there's a misalignment of expectations with where you get into the engagement. And so I think being able to get clarity on that upfront is really important. Any other final thoughts, guys, for just best practices and partnering with outsourcing.

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19:52:00 - 20:13:15

Tiffany Silverberg

I was just going to say we love to be organized. And Karen leads a team really well, keeping the trains running. So, I guess that's the biggest thing is if you need someone coming in to wrangle it all together and get it off the ground. 

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20:13:17 - 20:33:20

Karen Villalta

Yeah. Well, again, I think we're excited. Our team is definitely excited to jump in and wants to help and be their go-to marketing agency. We're passionate about our work and we look forward to partnering. And I think that really shows when we start engagements with clients.

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20:33:22 - 20:51:24

Lauren Hong

So oh my gosh, awesome. Thank you guys for sharing best practices and marketing best practices or should say best practices for working with the outsourced marketing team and then marketing best practices for how to just communicate, engage, think strategically, and really find the right partner and the right fit for where you're at as a company.

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20:51:24 - 20:55:06

Lauren Hong

So, yeah. Good stuff. Thank you.

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20:55:06 - 21:02:10

Tiffany Silverberg

Guys. Thanks.

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