‍We talked with Scott about:

• Staying true to your passion and what you set out to be
• Being adaptable and taking bold moves in your firm to meet your clients’ needs
• Realizing that failure is a learning experience that will just make you better

About Scott MacKillop
Scott MacKillop is a visionary in the financial services realm who took the courageous leap of stepping outside the box to transform the industry after recognizing a gap in the market. Led by his passion to make a difference for independent financial advisors, Scott forged his own path and founded the first mutual fund TAMP. Up against much speculation, he also implemented his unconventional idea of flat fees. Through sheer grit and innovative thinking, Scott transformed his vision into reality, creating a groundbreaking service model. Today, many firms are shifting to embrace Scott’s revolutionary idea in an effort to better serve clients. His bravery and willingness to embrace risk not only made him successful but he also inspires others to follow their dreams and fearlessly pursue their passions. Scott is currently the award-winning CEO of First Ascent Asset Management. He has published over 100 articles and papers and participated in more than 100 speaking engagements. His achievements include a Wealthy Award and an Advisor Luminary Award, among many others. Scott’s journey serves as a testament to the transformative power of thinking differently and taking bold action to make a lasting impact. 

Featured Resources

• Scott MacKillop’s Bio
• Scott’s MacKillop’s LinkedIn Profile
• Market Timing: The Sweet Dream that Never Comes True by Scott MacKillop
• AI vs. Mr. Market — Who Wins? By Scott MacKillop
• Do Clients Really Want Personalized Portfolios? By Scott MacKillop

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren (00:02):
Scott, welcome and thank you for joining us.

Scott (00:04):
Well, thank you for having me, Lauren. I'm really looking forward to the conversation.

Lauren (00:07):
Yeah, I am as well. Like I was just sharing with you, it was so funny because I was bouncing around and I crossed your profile and was so impressed. I think, let's see, you've written over 160 papers—I don't know how updated that number is—and spoken at over 100 conferences, and your practice management is award-winning. I mean, a Wealthy Award, which is one of the most notable awards in this space and an Advisor Luminary Award. I mean, the list will go on but I'll let you do a brief introduction and we can link to your bio and all that good stuff below. But I'm excited to get into it and especially excited to hear more about this flat fee model and also just more practice management in general.

Scott (00:55):
Yeah, I'll just jump in. I'll just give you a little bit of background about my professional career. I actually started out life as a lawyer in Washington, D.C. I was a securities lawyer for about 15 years, and then went to work for one of my clients down in Atlanta.  And that was a pension consulting firm, so consulting on investment matters to very large institutions. We were approached by some financial advisors who were interested in a lot of the things we were doing for the institutions, and they wondered if we could put something together that would address the needs of independent financial advisors. And so we had no idea really what the world of independent financial advisors looked like at that point. I mean, this was 30-something years ago.

And we ended up developing what was the first mutual fund TAMP. So that was the first ever; there were a couple TAMPs that were doing separate account work but we were the first mutual fund TAMP. So we grew that business. And then PMC, which is based here in Denver where I am now, bought our firm. And at PMC we built the first platform that had both separately managed accounts and mutual fund portfolios on it. And then PMC was sold to another firm. I culturally didn't really mesh as well with that firm so I left and formed my own consulting firm and did a lot of work with larger firms— Frank Russell, Nationwide Insurance, Schwab, JP Morgan Asset Management—and helped them develop investment programs for financial advisors.

And then I ended up going to work for one of my consulting clients in Houston, U.S. Fiduciary, and we built I think what was one of the first platforms for brokers who were leaving the wirehouse world and wanted to come out and have both a brokerage capability but also a TAMP, somebody who could help them manage their assets. So I did that for a while. And then I moved on to another TAMP that was run by some people I knew from my earlier career. And we grew that business to a couple billion dollars. And that's the kind of cool thing we did there, we started working with platforms like investment and so forth to bring investment capabilities to the platform world. And that was a good experience.

But at a certain point, I started developing these crazy ideas about flat fees. And my partners at that firm weren't as wild about my flat fee ideas as I was. And so I left that firm and started First Ascent Asset Management with some people, most of whom I knew from earlier days; I'd worked with them before. My son actually was one of the people who joined the firm. He and I had worked together before too. We took this idea about trying to deliver outsourced portfolio management services to financial advisors but for a flat fee so the fee didn't keep going up as the account size went up. The idea was pretty simple and straightforward, and it just dawned on me at one point that if somebody was going to do that, and if it wasn't me, then it was going to be somebody else. So we started down that path.

Lauren (04:26):
Can you share a little bit more? Did you feel like that's really been a differentiator for you in the market?

Scott (04:32):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's been huge. We're still the only TAMP in the marketplace that provides a full-service flat fee offering. And so it's been really a  godsend for us just because it's so clear everybody understands what it is. It's a differentiator that is immediately understandable by anybody who hears about it. And the benefits are very obvious. You can do the math and you can see how the clients would benefit greatly from having a flat fee.

Lauren (05:06):
Can you share a little bit more about that? How did you get to that bottom line, for lack of a better expression? And I would love to hear about how you positioned that as well, you know? 

Scott (05:20):
The thought process was pretty straightforward. So, as I mentioned, at my previous firm we were working through these platforms like Envestnet. So really what that business consisted of was we were developing portfolios and giving them to Envestnet. And Envestnet did all the work to do the trading and implement the portfolios. So there was no operational burden on us whatsoever, right? So it was like a piece of paper we'd send off to Envestnet and they would implement the portfolios. And then all the financial advisors who worked with Envestnet, which was thousands of financial advisors, could get access to our portfolios. So it was a pretty cool business model. But when you think about it, we weren't doing any more work for big accounts than we were for small accounts.

So the logic of the AUM-based fee in that environment just didn't make sense to me. And then the more I thought about it, given the technology we had in our industry today, we could manage portfolios—a hundred thousand dollar portfolio and a million dollar portfolio were basically the same thing. You know, the real custom work was being done by the advisors on the front line. They're kind of the battle weary troops out there, and we were sort of standing behind and just managing the portfolios. And so it really didn't matter to us if it was a hundred thousand dollar or a million dollar portfolio; the same amount of work was involved. So that logic took us to the flat fee. We said, well, let's try to find the flat fee that's both a good deal for clients and for the advisors but also makes economic sense for us.

Lauren (07:02):
Just from an economic planning side of things, is there anything in particular you had to do on the backend to tighten operations from a technology side or systems in place? Or how can you make sure that you can scale that model, right? How did that work? 

Scott (07:19):
So this was a very important part of the plan. This is why we couldn't do it from an existing firm, because the existing firms are all built around the AUM model and their distribution model and their technology and everything. So we really had to start from scratch. We had to make a very efficient platform from a technology point of view so we could create what was essentially an assembly line for the management of portfolios. We also had to change the distribution model where most TAMPs in those days, and probably still to this day, send wholesalers on an airplane out to meet one-on-one with financial advisors, which again to me seemed like kind of an old idea. And now after the pandemic, everybody can see the logic of it.

But this was pre-pandemic. And I thought, well, geez, we've got all these things like Zoom and GoTo and so forth. We could just talk to advisors from our office and we wouldn't have to incur all the expenses of airplanes and hotels, right? That overhead. And we'd be a lot more efficient because we could talk to more people and we wouldn't bother advisors by saying, well, could we get some time on your calendar three weeks from now? And let's go to lunch and all that. An advisor could just call up and say, hey, I want to talk to you, and we would be there and available to talk. So that whole distribution model just seemed to make a lot of sense but it also made us more efficient; it reduced the overhead associated with what we were doing.

And so just all along the way we also needed this very skilled team. We needed people who knew what they were doing and had been in this business before, and pretty much everybody on our team was a highly experienced person in this kind of a business. And so by just getting people who were very knowledgeable and very productive and very dedicated to what we were trying to do, and using the technology that was available, we were able to scale this business up at a cost that most existing firms to this day still couldn't do. And I think that's why we're still the only flat feet TAMP out in the marketplace—none of the big firms could really retool them themselves to do what we're doing that quickly.

Lauren (09:30):
So you got the right people in the right seats, and it also sounds like people who had the industry knowledge, expertise, so you could be smarter, faster, all of that. How about from the concept of this model to actually opening doors? What did it take to get to that point? Did you have to build out your own or adjust a pre-existing technology? What did that whole route look like?

Scott (09:56):
Yeah, so this was a really important part of it, and it's kind of come full circle. We can get back to that in a minute. But one of the things we wanted to do to keep our costs low was we wanted to find a technology infrastructure that would allow us to charge on a per account basis, not an AUM-based fee but some technology provider who would say, I'll give you the technology you need and we'll just charge you a fixed dollar fee because it had to fit within our flat fee, right? And so Orion was the solution we came up with. And I knew Eric Clark from climbing mountains and hiking and so forth, and he understood really right from the very beginning what we were trying to do.

And so they to this day have been our technology infrastructure and have allowed us to grow our business. We've more recently been purchased by a firm called GeoWealth and GeoWealth has its own technology platform. So in the not too distant future we'll be converting from Orion onto the GeoWealth platform, and that'll give us an added benefit. Now we'll have the technology in-house and we'll be able to make changes and customize it and so forth at a level you can't really do working with Orion. So Orion's been a great partner but it's time to sort of change the model again.

Lauren (11:18):
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean to take you to a certain milestone, right? And other opportunities. So just to back up, so you've had all this experience, you saw an opportunity, a gap in the market, got the right people in the right places, started to build out the infrastructure and technology. Once you got there, how did you start to market this? This is my marketing hat. I can't help but ask that. What did you do? Were you tapping in your current network? How did you get the word out? 

Scott (11:50):
This was the big challenge because we did something that I don't recommend to anybody else—we basically started an asset management firm with no assets under management and no track record. So whoever we talked to, no matter how much they like the flat fee, they said, whoa, that's great but how much do you guys have under management? Well, we had a little bit of our own money under management but it was not an impressive amount. So we were really selling the concept as opposed to the fact that we were some big firm with lots of clients and lots of assets under management. And so we appealed to the people who really cared about their clients.

You know, the people who really wanted to do something better for their clients, and also to advisors who had been doing the investment management stuff themselves but who were just really tired of doing it—they just didn't want to do all the back office work and all the work to research the building of portfolios. Or they realized at some point along the way they weren't really very good at it, you know? Or they wanted to focus on financial planning maybe instead. So there was this kind of movement within the advisor community of people who were looking for a better way to do this. And so then the challenge was just to get the word out and that involved a lot of writing.

A lot of those 160—it's actually now 170—papers and articles were designed to get the word out. And we talked to people we knew and wherever anybody would listen to our story. And then you start to pick up fans along the way, people who get what you're doing. The XY Planning Network was a great opportunity for us because a lot of those people talk to each other a lot. They have great communication among the group. And so we started there and built a lot of fans in that part of the world. And now probably 50 plus percent of our new business comes in from referrals. And so people like what we do. And as you said, we've won a lot of awards and that's helped raise our visibility.

I think we've been ranked as the number one TAMP four years in a row now in the Bob Joel Bruckenstein survey of advisors. That's not a pay to play thing or anything that's just advisors filling out their survey forms and four years in a row we've been ranked over one. So it's pretty exciting to see that. It's partially about the flat fee but a lot of it really is just the service level. As I said, the people at our firm are not only experienced but very dedicated to what they're doing. And we've kept it as a small group of people and almost all of them have been with us since the very beginning.

So it's more of a mission than a job. I think at this point, we have a very definite purpose in going out and trying to build a firm that would support advisors and give clients a good deal. We’re worried less about making a private equity firm rich because we didn't have a private equity firm behind us. We just wanted to go out there and do the best, build the best TAMP you could build. And that was the idea. 

Lauren (15:23):
Yeah. Seeing a gap in the market, putting the right people in the right places, it sounds like, and just taking good care of people and making sure everyone who crossed paths or happened to do business was well taken care of. So fast forward to today, now that you've sort of settled, the dust has settled, right? Everything you kind of alluded to in the beginning, the kind of target that was sort of attracted to this offering is there and as you've grown the business you've brought on new clientele. Do you find that this model will fit a particular size firm? Or is it more of a value alignment, or is a little bit of both that could be the right fit for this kind of model?

Scott (16:10):
Yeah, it's a little bit of both. So we don't have any advisory firms over 200 million in assets under management. And what we've found is that's kind of a pretty hard dividing line once firms get beyond that. Most of them have started to build out the infrastructure and hire the people. They have their own investment department. It's not a one- or two-person shop anymore. It's a bigger organization. And so for better or worse, they decide to do that on their own. What's changed though, the thing that's really interesting from when we started seven years ago, is we more recently started getting requests from people who said, love that flat fee, love the service model but I'd like to stay more involved in the actual portfolio management process.

So they wanted to be either totally in charge or they wanted to share that responsibility with us. So we didn't really have a business model that worked in that environment. And so this more recent transaction with GeoWealth has really been the answer to that for us because their business was built for advisors who wanted to manage their own portfolios. So they have the technology platform that's outstanding for advisors who want to do their own portfolio management, and  then they can offload the trading and the performance reporting and building and a lot of the back office work but they can stay involved in the portfolio management. So now we can serve those advisory firms that tend to be larger.

I think the GeoWealth market goes up to $4 or $5 billion firms that are looking for more of a technology solution than an investment management solution. So now together we've got this capability to supply the technology for somebody who wants us to  supply the back office service. And if somebody wants the asset management, we can supply that too. We have an outstanding investment committee we developed at first ASIN and the Geo people actually have some really talented investment people too. So now we have a much broader spectrum. It's kind of almost too good to be true the way it all unfolded, because it was probably two years ago we started getting these requests for customization in fairly large numbers.

And we took a number of those relationships on; if they were large enough, we would try to do them but we had bandwidth issues because we didn't own our own technology and we weren't really staffed for it. There were only so many of those we could do. And now with the GeoWealth platform, we can take on an infinite number of those, which the technology will accommodate. So a much broader spectrum of requests. 

Lauren (19:12):
Oh, that makes sense. So then you're able to then help those clients as they're growing, right? They're growing their firms, and then there's this layer on of the 2.0 as they're expanding.

Scott (19:22):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Lauren (19:23):
Is there a minimum of assets for a firm that would be a fit that you've noticed?

Scott (19:29):
No. I think GeoWealth has minimums because in order to invest in setting up the technology, it really makes sense. But for us, we have advisors who are relatively experienced but they left a firm, let's say and they couldn't bring their assets with them. So they said, I've been in the business 10 years, I have great confidence I can shoot the lights out and get a new book of business and if you'll work with me we'll both be happy two or three years down the road. So we took those advisors on and sure enough, we've been happy with their growth. I think it's been important from our side to just be what we set out to be, which was an organization that was there to help the advisors and not try to draw artificial lines about who's going to be a really profitable client for us and kind of exclude everybody else. There was an attitude of just, we'll figure out how to make this work. Come on board and we'll take care of you. And oh by the way, tell your friends if you like how it feels and we'll just grow our business together. And that's really how we did it.

Lauren (20:51):
Yeah. That's sort of championing the group versus sort of exclusivity. And it sounds like the model is also fitting because there's a balance, right? If it's not the right fit, you want someone to be set up for the right fit, but if not, if the model allows for that and you can take good care of them, then that's a win-win. So sort of like you were saying, you realize that threshold but now you're seeing an opportunity to now serve sort of at that next threshold with this technology.

Scott (21:16):
Yeah, exactly. It's allowed us to expand what we're doing and that's exciting. Because we hated saying no to people. But if it wasn't the right fit, if we couldn't do the level of customization they were looking for or really give them the control over the investment management process they were looking for, we had to just say goodbye and now we don't have to anymore. So that's great.

Lauren (21:45):
So, to back up a little bit, if someone were to be watching this and hearing this, they might see a gap in the market, right? A gap for an opportunity to either start a business or to be able to better improve an internal processes or what have you. What are some of your lessons learned or takeaways that you would repeat or wouldn't repeat even before getting this going? You had a good pulse, right? But did you do a competitive analysis? Was it talking with people? Was it just listening to what people were saying? What advice would you give to someone who is thinking about potentially taking on a new venture or their own?

Scott (22:29):
Well, the process I went through, which I would highly recommend, was I talked to everybody I could talk to about the ideas. The flat fee was one of the ideas I talked about as well as a little bit about the distribution model. There were a number of ideas. We had some ideas about the importance of educating clients to be better investors. And we had a lot of ideas about how to manage portfolios better. So I talked to everybody I knew about those, especially people in our industry, people who were leaders of some of the larger TAMPs that were going to be competitors. They were all really very helpful. Alex Potts, who was at Lauren Ward, and Eric Clark obviously knew what we were up to and people like that were very supportive. They said, hey, what you're doing is really cool and I hope you don't take all our business. And that was probably validating. 

Scott (23:29):
There's plenty of room for everybody. But I talked to people who knew a lot from the TAMP world, and I talked to people who were in the advisor community. Would this make sense for you? And I talked to a lot of people I had worked with over the years and just really tried to test the idea. And I did that probably for eight or eight months or so. 

Lauren (23:54):
So it was getting the pulse of the market, a little bit of a market analysis.

Scott (23:57):
Yeah. As much as I could. Now you have to be careful when you do that because everybody you talk to is going to have a different opinion about things. So if you've got a great idea, don't be dissuaded just because some of the people you talk to don't see it maybe, or kind of see the world a different way, are kind of stuck in maybe in the old ways of doing things. But appreciate the fact that just because somebody hasn't thought of something yet doesn't mean it's not a good idea. We tend to be herd animals in a lot of ways, and we continue to do the things that have always been done. And so it takes a little bit of boldness to step out of that and say, no, I think I see a different, better way to do it.

I guess what I'm saying is believe in yourself, but also trust but verify. Go out there and let people bang on your idea; you know how our idea was going to unfold changed once we got out into the marketplace. The flat fee we came out with initially wasn't the flat fee we ended up with a year later. And it changed over time. As we got more information, we were able to modify what we were doing to adapt to what the market was telling us. And that was the most important thing. A lot of the firms I've been at in the past have really smart people who think they know the right answer to everything, or at least some things. And they just build the thing they like and they want. First Ascent has been a real eye opener for me in the sense of just saying you don't have to know everything yourself. If you go out into the market, the market will tell you very quickly what you have. And what you got wrong. And you should be ready to adapt to that. And that's what we did that worked for us. 

Lauren (26:01):
So smart. And such good insight. Just hearing your story and where you've taken it is impressive. And I think also just being able to feel the market and then you know where it's going, especially just being on the cutting edge of technology. There's a lot of that out there and it's changing very fast, right?

Scott (26:21):
Yeah, exactly. Well, that was the real evolution for us—we started out thinking we needed to outsource the technology to Orion. And that really worked for us. But things have come full circle and now we're seeing the benefits of being part of the GeoWealth organization, of having the technology in-house and being able to react to a broader set of requests from advisors. There are things we couldn't change about the technology and now we can change because it's under the same roof with us. And so it's just really worked out well for us.

Lauren (26:56):
Well, I know we're at the top of our time. I really appreciate you sharing. Are there any final thoughts you'd like to share or any words of wisdom?

Scott (27:08):
No, I would just encourage people who have ideas they believe in, ways they think they can make the world better. Maybe that's too big of a statement, but if you can find some way to do things in a different way that will improve the lot of the people you're serving, whether that's financial advisors or whoever it may be, don't just ignore it because it might be hard. It's gonna be really hard. However hard you think it's going to be, it's going to be way harder than that. But if you believe in something and you have the passion for it, just go for it. You know, failure has a bad name. Failure is just kind of a learning experience. It didn't quite go the way you wanted it. And so I think people who try things and get out there in the arena and try to make things happen, that's really very laudable and you should go for it.

Lauren (28:06):
Courageous. Absolutely. Well, appreciate your time. Thank you for sharing the journey and story to be able to get to this place. And then also thank you for sharing your knowledge about this model and practice management and all those sorts of things with this community. So it takes a village and I appreciate you taking the time. 

Scott (28:28):
It's been my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

Lauren (28:31):
Yes, absolutely. Okay. We look forward to following along, and we'll make sure in the writeup to include all the links and such as we've discussed.

Scott (28:39):
Great. Thanks a lot, Lauren.

Lauren (28:40):
Thank you.

<div class="post-body">As creative director, Ellie loves rolling up her sleeves to do deep dives into the marketing potential of financial services firms.

Defining and Redefining Finserv

With over a decade of design and art directing experience, Ellie brings balance supporting big brands such as Target and General Mills as well as mid-sized businesses through her work with traditional ad agencies. In her role as Out & About’s creative director, her passion lies in helping financial services firms build their brand equity in the marketplace. Unwilling to rest on dry, traditional marketing and branding tactics, Ellie believes in the unique potential for each of our clients to level up.

What You Can’t Tell Just From Looking at Her

Parents of two young children, Ellie and her husband dedicate themselves to finding cool and unique family experiences throughout Minneapolis. A Midwestern girl through and through, she looks forward to tending to her vegetable garden and their chickens with the kids during the summer. When the months grow cooler, Ellie proudly pulls out her power tools to tackle home improvement projects of every variety. </div>

‍We talked with Julie about:

• The importance of engaging clients on an ongoing basis, through all phases of life
• How the Absolute Engagement Engine brings technology and people together in a different way 
• How to capture people’s feelings and needs to deliver an experience that’s truly engaging

About Julie Littechild:
Julie Littlechild is a recognized expert on the evolution of the client experience and client engagement. As the founder and CEO of Absolute Engagement Engine, a groundbreaking platform that helps financial advisors build meaningful connections by engaging clients on a deeper level on an ongoing basis through all phases of life, she leads strategic vision and product roadmap. Julie launched the company after working with and studying financial advisors and their clients for several years—learning that to deliver a truly engaging experience, advisors need to capture their clients’ feelings and needs at every moment.

Featured Resources 

• Julie’s LinkedIn 
• Julie’s Twitter
• Julie’s Blog
• Julie’s Book
• Absolute Engagement Website

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren (00:02):
Julie, welcome back.

Julie (00:03):
Thank you. So good to see you.

Lauren (00:05):
Good to see you. This isn't your first rodeo, so let’s just jump in.

Julie (00:09):
That's great.

Lauren (00:10):
I saw you had rolled out this new Absolute Engagement Engine and I couldn't help but say tell us more so I extended an invite to have you back. It's just been so fun to see the relationships you've been building and all the connections across the wealth management space, financial services space, etc. And so let's just start with this new platform. What was the catalyst for getting this going and why? What's the why?

Julie (00:40):
What's the why? You know, I think a lot of it goes back to just the kind of work we were doing, which I felt very good about. But the deeper we got into this idea of engagement and the need for advisors to engage, the more I realized we needed a different way to support advisors. So our focus had always been on doing the voice of the client surveys and these sort of broad engagements with advisors, which we continue to do for many large firms. But I was very kind of hyper aware that when you go out and do a survey at a point in time, you're missing a lot of the nuance around how clients are feeling, what they need in the moment, how those needs are changing, how couples are feeling. And I knew all of that was bound up in engagement. So that really led us to say, now how can we help advisors better and more effectively drive engagement.

Lauren (01:44):
Mm-hmm. So tell us more, what was the thinking to be able to get to this platform to be able to help hit on that business problem?

Julie (01:53):
Yeah, so to some extent it started with a question. We said what's really driving engagement? And that was sort of thinking that had evolved over time but we came down to this idea that to deliver an experience that's truly engaging rather than just being satisfying means we need to create an experience that reflects how people are feeling, what they're concerned about, what they need. And then as soon as we said that we went, okay, the problem is those things are very personal and they change over time, right? I don't know about you but how I feel right now, it's probably different from tomorrow. And in particular within couples, you know, their needs are obviously often different. And so we took this idea of capturing point in time, one to many feedback, right? And said, let's build a technology that allows advisors to capture one-to-one real-time input and trigger the right response in an automated way. And let's do that right across the journey from the point somebody's a prospect to a new client to an existing client. And so that's the tech piece, right? It’s being able to do that in an automated way.

Lauren (03:11):
Okay. So tell me, what channel is this coming through? How are folks engaging with this? Is this the prospecting journey that goes through a post-meeting email and they get a survey? What are the triggers?

Julie (03:27):
I can give you some examples. So at its core, this is a very flexible platform. So we have people engaging with it in different ways. There are different sort of use cases and features, right? But the simplest way to think about it is that we are capturing input at different stages of the journey. So just to give you an example, to bring that to life, if we're working with firms that are particularly focused on growth, what that would mean is as a prospect is coming in for that introductory meeting, as part of that process, they're now invited to share some input on not only what do they want to talk about but they're fed a series of questions that tease out how they're feeling about their financial future, what they're concerned about, what's on their mind, what they need to talk about. We're automatically capturing that from couples if it is a couple and bringing that together so not only does the prospect have a deeper understanding of themselves as they're coming in for that review meeting because we've sent an agenda to them but the advisor has too. But the advisor now has co-created the agenda they need to use for that meeting. So we kind of go from capturing that right input to here's the agenda to have a better conversation with that prospect. That idea kind of filters into all of the different use cases for the technology.

Lauren (04:55):
Okay. And just to clarify on the word prospects, are we talking about an individual or a family or are you also looking at potentially an M&A, a deal or even an advisor potentially joining another firm? Can it can be used in those applications as well?

Julie (05:10):
Well, technically it could but we've really built it for advisors and the prospects they're dealing with. So whether that is a lead who visits their site and has not yet made a connection, how can we engage that individual to the prospect who's coming in to meet with them, and then right through to being a client and how do we engage on an ongoing basis?

Lauren (05:34):
Okay. So then is the firm taking this platform and looking at their user journey, and are you working with them then to identify where these triggers would go? Or is it kind of built into the platform to suggest where the triggers would go? How would one go about identifying these touchpoints?

Julie (05:52):
Well, again, at the core it's very flexible. So technically a firm could create whatever workflows and polls and reports they want. However, that's hard work. So what we did was, we said where are those moments in the journey that would create the greatest opportunity for engagement? And we built those out. So we have recommended questions, reporting agendas. It can be completely configured for the client. It has to represent who they're dealing with, right? For our client in that case. But what we said was, look, those moments are really the ones I mentioned—once somebody's visiting that website or a social profile or maybe hearing about you from a referral source, when they're coming in for that meeting and onboarding, those were the points where we said let's build out those workflows. Let's create the polls and everything associated with it so it can be automated and easy for advisors to really implement.

Lauren (06:57):
Okay. Now, are you doing hand holding with to help them through that setup? Or are they really taking the platform and then kind of running with it independently?

Julie (07:08):
Yeah. We're big believers that people need guidance in this kind of thing. So as much as yes, they could do it themselves, we have quite an extensive onboarding process where we're digging deep to understand what are they really trying to accomplish so which of the features actually make sense for them. Might not be all of them, and or it might not be them now. Maybe they want to roll it out over time, and then we work with them to configure those initial polls and structure the reports and customize the communication. So once that's up and running, it's very easy to maintain. But we really felt people needed some guidance to get started.

Lauren (07:50):
And different targets, right? Which I'm sure would totally change the volume of surveying or how you would survey them or what have you. So it sounds like you've basically built the framework and you've built the structure so much so that it's not just a survey but it's an output for actions, for that advisor to also have a pulse on where they're at through the journey of the client or prospect, I should say, all the way to the client.

Julie (08:17):
Yeah. And it is funny because we battle terminology a lot because I think people get it in their head that a survey is this big thing we're asking clients to do. And look, I think those make sense to measure satisfaction or Net Promoter Score or to understand expectations and preferences. So our clients would continue to get that kind of data on an ongoing basis. The difference here is we're saying let's build input right into the process of delivering advice and meeting with clients and prospects. So it's not a big survey. It's two or three or four really clever questions that help us get into their hearts and minds.

Lauren (08:58):
Those questions are a secret sauce that's hard to be able to really narrow down, especially at that particular part of the journey. And also so that it's valuable, right? I sometimes see folks put together surveys and I'm like, oh my gosh, this would take like an hour to complete. Leave them there for 10 minutes to complete a survey. I'm sure you see drop off rates all the time. 

Julie (09:20):
Yeah, for large ones but the difference would be if you're thinking about these new features, you'd be spending two minutes answering a set of questions and we also recognize the clients aren't particularly good at articulating how they're feeling. I mean, human beings aren't. So yeah. We've really tried to curate questions that just quickly get to the heart of how are they feeling right now. Where are the differences between the couple? What kind of support do they need? It's still the advisor's job to dig into those things. Absolutely. So we can't do that for them. Absolutely. We can just make all of that really efficient. So when they start that meeting, they're starting ahead. They know exactly where they need to focus.

Lauren (10:08):
So out of curiosity,  you're creating all this data. You've got perhaps maybe a little bit more apples to apples just maybe you could I'm sure split by firm size or things like that. Is that kind of, I'll call it like big data things you're also being able to help then say, in comparison with maybe another RA or with a particular size of AUM to be able to help give like a baseline to those firms? Is that an additional piece to it? 

Julie (10:37):
Yeah, we've done that with our large scale survey and people do find it helpful. So absolutely. If you look across firms I think there are insights to be gleaned even within them. We work with often larger firms. I mean, we work with smaller ones and individuals as well but for the leadership teams of the larger firms, what they're able to see is not only what that trending data is and what do our clients need and how can we support them more effectively but they're also able to see from one advisor to the next. Maybe someone needs some skills development or maybe they would benefit from some support. So I think that kind of feedback for them is really invaluable as well.

Lauren (11:24):
Absolutely. To be able to better support your team. Maybe it's the close of the sale that someone's fantastic at, and for someone it also might just be that client relationship side, right? And satisfaction or to overgeneralize but it sure helps to have some gleaning insights there too.

Julie (11:39):
Absolutely.

Lauren (11:40):
Oh, so fascinating too. And also that it's so focused  just for advisors.

Julie (11:48):
As soon as we launched, we had people asking us for about different cases and so at some level it's at the firm or on behalf of the advisor. Technically when you're in a service business, this makes sense. But right now we're just laser-focused on our core audience.

Lauren (12:10):
So tell us a little bit more about the launch. How was it received? What did you all do leading up to it? How have you let people know? 

Julie (12:20):
What was really interesting for me personally in all of this is we weren't just launching a product, we were transforming how we did business and in some sense how we'd be perceived. And that was a big question mark for me. I'd built a lot of relationships being known as the person who does this research or the firm that does these surveys. And then we were a fintech because creating the technology made sense. It was in response to a need. So we put a lot of effort, the whole team, into the marketing and PR and launch and then post-launch as well and I've been just blown away. I was at a conference this week and the number of people who are just saying, I've seen what you've been doing, it's so exciting, they're supportive. How can I help? It's such an amazing industry for that kind of thing but we've been doing a lot and I think so far it's so good.

Lauren (13:35):
Has it been a service your current clients are wanting to add on? Or have you seen new people sort of come out of the woodwork? How has it been? 

Julie (13:44):
It’s about both actually. We started with our existing clients because we wanted to make sure they had the best solutions and for some of them, for many of our larger clients, we were doing an annual survey or a survey every other year. So the primary focus for them was, let's get you onto the engine so you're capturing that on an ongoing basis. So whether that is 25% of your clients a quarter or literally one-to-one on the anniversary date of a client relationship that it's triggering that, we wanted to make sure that kind of data was baked into their process and didn't become a big project they had to do. And then, as we were doing that, they were looking at some of these other features and how we're going to implement those across the firm. So yeah, the existing clients. But then because we've been doing so much promotion, obviously we've had some great feedback and we've got new clients joining as well.

Lauren (14:46):
That's fabulous. I feel like when it came out, I kept seeing oh, there's this media feature here and this is going on.

Julie (14:53):
I know. I'm sure.

Lauren (14:54):
People have been really curious to be able to hear more about it, this new way of approaching things. So now is it sort of you come in and this is what's provided, or is it sort of tiered—like tier one, tier two, tier three where if they want kind of a higher level or a certain number of surveys, if you will? How does that shake out?

Julie (15:12):
So right now, we've split the pricing initially into two tiers. One is for those clients who right now just want to focus on measuring the experience and optimizing service plans. So like I said, the Net Promoter, satisfaction, interest, all those things; there are some clients who that's all they're ready for now or they want that initial benchmark and they want to roll everything out. So we carved out a tier to say we can just do that. You don't have to buy the whole thing but then you can upgrade to everything. And when you get all of that, you get all of the features, as many surveys, as many clients, all of it that's not limited in any way. And we've been working very closely with our initial clients. I will say we have a guided upsell, if you will, a guided approach for those who want consultation. But the reality is for our initial clients, we're just working with them hand in hand. Right now, we're not going anywhere. They're probably sick of us calling them and making sure everything's going well; they're taken care of.

Lauren (16:19):
Oh, yeah.

Julie (16:20):
I want them to be set up so they're using the data well, they understand it, the advisors know how to use it, right? That's all we care about right now.

Lauren (16:31):
Well, it's critical, right? You get to a certain size and that data is telling you what's happening, right? And so you have an idea of where to shift or it's adding into the pool of how you're driving the firm or just key decision-making around culture and what's working and not. It’s so fabulous. I really appreciate you sharing more to be able to unpack this tool. We can see the power in it. And I can also especially see the power for this particular market because it's one with a long sales cycle, right? And then usually once you are closing a a client, you usually are with them for a long time, oftentimes for a lifetime, right? So that experience is gonna absolutely change based off of so many factors. So this is a nice pulse of that kind of evolution of time too. 

Julie (17:23):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Lauren (17:24):
Is there anything else you want to share that I haven't asked or that folks have asked as you've been rolling things out?

Julie (17:31):
You know, I think a lot of the conversations we've had have been around this idea that we're talking a lot about feelings and needs, you know, the softer side of of relationships. And it feels almost odd to be talking about technology in the same breath, and yet we talk to advisors who are incredibly good at making connections with people. I mean, that's why they got into this business. And I'm not trying to teach them anything about that. All we've been trying to do is say, can we make it more efficient for you so you can get to that point faster?  And that's where this marriage of technology and just the human side of advice I think is really starting to come together. And it's certainly not just us. There's a lot of really interesting technology out there right now, particularly in the advice engagement category, that's all about bringing tech and people together in a different way.  So I'm kind of excited about that and excited about the fact that people are open to not just thinking about basic service models but really going deeper. 

Lauren (18:46):
Yeah. Absolutely. There’s so much new technology that you can't keep up with it, everything that's been rolling out. So it's good to be part of that mix. But I think more importantly is adding to the outcome, to be able to drive business forward and for decision-making and to be able to offer support along the way. Like you said, it's one thing to take something off the shelf, it's another thing to really say, okay, this is where you are this point of time with your business and this is how this tool can support with that. And grow with you frankly, you know? Opening up to a new target market or a new service offering or what have you. And so it creates a lot of opportunities, it sounds like, for that to be nimble.

Julie (19:29):
It does. Yeah. And that's what I'm excited about. We've got some of our clients who are using some of the features and saying, well, how does this differ if it's a business owner versus someone who's a professional and thinking about retirement and how would that change the questions we ask. And whatnot. So to me, the really interesting part of this is we can go deeper and deeper to get to the heart of what's important.

Lauren (19:54):
All those conditional pieces.

Julie (19:56):
Exactly.

Lauren (19:57):
Ah, fantastic. Well, thank you again for your time. Congratulations on the launch. Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to following this new platform. I'd be especially excited if there's big data or reports that are shared that come out of it but just to hear more. So I appreciate all you do for the community and again, for you taking time to share a little bit more. Thanks.

Julie (20:14):
Thanks for having me. Of course.

A true people person, Maddie helps build client trust as a marketing account assistant through her solid project management skills and passion for the financial services industry.

A Leader in the Making

Maddie graduated from Lauren’s alma mater, Drake University, where she helped manage the third largest track and field event in the U.S.—the Drake Relays. Eventually moving on to the Federal Home Loan Bank of Des Moines, she worked on social media campaigns, copywriting, and graphic design projects on top of streamlining communications with over 400 bank employees. Maddie is excited to be helping integrate Out & About into clients’ teams and work alongside our clients to implement projects. 

What You Can’t Tell Just From Looking at Her

Not to jinx her, but Maddie is proud of her green thumb and has successfully kept all her plants thriving for over a year! She loves saying yes to random good times with friends, including embracing new challenges and experiences. In fact, she recently signed up to play in a racquetball league!

‍

We talked with Mary about:

• How sometimes the greatest success comes from making mistakes and embracing the pivots 
• Giving yourself permission to be perfectly imperfect, normalizing challenges, and being okay with not being okay 
• How staying true to your authentic self may mean turning your back on the wrong opportunities while leading yourself to the right ones 
• How learning about those around you, being curious, and asking questions can help reframe how you’re going to show up and do the work

About Mary Grothe:
Mary Grothe lived every day aiming for perfection and quickly earned a reputation as a sales powerhouse. She scaled through being a number one sales representative and two-time business founder and CEO and is now an investor and chief revenue officer (CRO) at Payroll Network, Inc. (PIN), but her path has been anything but easy. Along her journey, she learned that finding true success required embracing vulnerability, normalizing challenges and mistakes, and allowing her authentic self to shine through. It wasn’t until she found her faith and gave herself permission to not have it all together every day that her entire world changed. Today, she shares her story to help others navigate their own journeys. Mary’s highly anticipated new book, “Destination; Remarkable.: Surviving the Dark Side of Success,” will hit shelves on September 19, 2023.

Featured Resources 

• Mary Grothe’s LinkedIn Profile
• Mary Grothe’s Instagram
• Mary Grothe’s Twitter
• Mary Grothe’s Website 
• Mental Health Awareness with Howard Brown and Mary Grothe 
• Pre-order now: Destination; Remarkable.: Surviving the Dark Side of Success by Mary Grothe

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren (00:02):
Thank you for being here.

Mary (00:03):
You’re welcome. Thank you for having me.

Lauren (00:07):
As I was just saying, you are a powerhouse. Just getting ready for this call today, I learned you’ve scaled so many businesses and now you've got a big challenge in front of you coming on board. What was it? I think the number was something like triple in size in the next five years. They brought on such a dynamic leader with your background in starting companies, helping to grow companies, seeing the marketing, sales side, revenue growth, side modeling, all of that good stuff. So we'll get into a little bit of that but before we do, I'll let you do a little bit more of an introduction. You've got quite the story; the list goes on.

Mary (00:50):
Yes, I've had a pretty interesting life. So interesting that Forbes said they wanted to publish it, which I know we'll dig into today. So I won't have a super long intro here but I didn't have the best upbringing. And when I was 22 years old, I stumbled upon a professional career. I grew up in the performing arts. I thought I was going to be a professional dancer, and that was derailed. I got in a car accident when I was 18, and I entered into a really dark period of my life. So at 22, when I stumbled upon this opportunity to take an admin role with a payroll company, I didn't realize it was going to forever change my life. So I started in that role. I ended up transitioning into sales, becoming the number one rep against everyone's desire to see me succeed.

But I did it. And then I left after five years, took a VP of sales and marketing position with one of my clients, and that was a big title for a young lady but had tremendous success. We were able to quadruple the size of that company in seven months. It always sounds more impressive than it is. It was a small company but still, nonetheless, I fell in love with revenue scaling. So I started my first firm at age 28. I was a business strategist with a focus on go-to-market marketing and sales. And I helped startups and entrepreneurs build their business plan with the focus on how to have that rapid growth out of the gate. I did that for three years. Also dabbled in youth entrepreneurship education, made a lot of rookie mistakes as a first-time CEO and didn't know how to grow my own company through delegation and building a team.

I ended up becoming a starving entrepreneur. So I closed up that business, went back to the payroll company for three more years, sold millions, and ended up selling one of the top 10 largest deals in company history with my small business partner. I took that six-figure commission check, left, started my second company, and I ran that for five and a half years; we actually had some success with that. So we were a small team when we started but we were able to do about half million in our first year, tripled in size in our second year, third year did 2.2, that was COVID, and then in our fourth year, we took the company to 3.6 million, which was on the books but we were at a run rate of 5 million with 28 employees. So really in four years time, we scaled it from zero to 28 in 4 million in revenue.

That was exciting but then I entered into a really tough period in my life, got burnt out as the CEO and was starting to question what I was put on this planet for, what I wanted to do. I started this journey of figuring out what I wanted in the next chapter. And so very recently I made the leap. I resigned as CEO from my company and took a full-time position with one of our clients. The company is called House of Revenue, and we are a revenue scaling expert. So we would take what we call second-stage scale companies that are looking at growing and figuring out how to build real revenue engines where marketing, sales, customer success are all working together, and we'd go on fractionally, help them build that engine, and then help take them to market and help them grow their revenue.

Well, one of our clients was Payroll Network, and I'm from the payroll industry. So I fell in love and ended up working on contract as a chief revenue officer. AndI just knew this was my new home. So I ended up resigning and took a full-time position in the beginning of 2023 as chief revenue officer. And yes, I have said yes to a tripling in size goal. I've had the privilege of doing this with other companies, and I am so ready. I'm a few months into this job, and it is by far the greatest job I've ever had in my life, better than the one I created for myself, which is surprising because a lot of entrepreneurs and CEOs build their dream job. And I think it was that way for the first few years but it changed and I wasn't happy anymore. So now I found it, and I'm having the time of my life.

Lauren (04:47):
Oh my goodness. So quite the story. It’s  incredible to see the growth in what you've been able to do for so many companies. And also just to be able to have your pulse on the entrepreneurship side of things, right? I love that you started as an admin at a payroll company. So you've seen it from so many levels and now are seeing it from this perspective and that lens, I think adds such value. So, okay, we could get into all of that; I want to get into flavors of that too. But I want to swing back to the book. So why the book? I know you talked about having  this relationship with Forbes and you're going through that process but what kind of even sparked this idea? Was it them that approached you? I'd love to hear more about that.

Mary (05:36):
They did approach me. They approached me in May of last year and funny story. So in 2020 when COVID hit and everybody was forced to be at home, I had to reinvent some of the things we were doing inside of our business but I kind of got bored. I mean, I was working a hundred hours a week as a startup and scale up CEO. COVID changed that, which I'm grateful for, and I found some extra time on my hands. So in 2020, I actually partnered up with a very famous sales author who I'm not going to name here, and I wanted to write a book. So I started a manuscript working with him as my coach. And he is one of the best-selling authors in the sales category, and he's just so tremendous. But he wanted to take my story in a really interesting direction where I was coming across as this badass in sales.

I was kind of cutthroat; I used to be that way, and it's actually part of my story that I really had to heal from but I don't want to be that person. And I would never want to write a book about being a number one sales rep and modeling it in a way that I want other people to follow in my footsteps. I actually wasn't the nicest person in my 20s. I wasn't kind and caring the way I am now. I was very broken on the inside and finding ways to heal those wounds and holes through success and recognition and money, which is not healthy, FYI. And so this book, by the time he took it to his publisher and it was written, they read it, and then I had some personal things in there for my story that they wanted all stripped out.

They're like, we don't want to know anything about her upbringing. We don't want to know about this transition after the fact of her new perspective. We really just want to publish how to become a number one sales rep. I didn't feel right about it. And so I backed out of the deal and I said that's not the story I'm feeling led to tell. I think there's a lot of sales books out there on how to be a top rep. I need to write a different story about how that's not the answer in life. There's so much more. And that we were created for so much more rather than just titles and money and recognition and being number one. So I tabled it; it just sat collecting dust, for lack of a better term. And when Forbes reached out and they're like, hey, we've come across your profile.

We've been researching some of the stuff you've done, and we very much would like to take you down the process to vet your work and put you in front of the council, see if we can get approval to publish you. And I said, well, I actually have a manuscript. And they thought, oh, okay. Well that could speed up the process. Let's read it. So I sent it over. I had done a pretty extensive interview with them. And then they looked at the manuscript and they came back and they said, these two don't match up. We met you and we heard your story but then we read this book and it just didn't feel authentic. It felt like a how-to book. It felt like such a small portion. And I said I couldn't agree with you more.

They said, we want to publish your story, not how to be a number one rep. And that's when my heart exploded. And I thought, well, okay, a few things we need to make sure we're talking clearly here. I'm a very outspoken woman of faith, and I need to make sure my faith is spoken in truth and gets to be published because there is no book or story outside of who I am as a Christian woman. They're like, not a problem. And I said, the other thing is you're a business brand, so I'm just making sure we're all on the same page. Yes, I have scaled through being a number one rep and being a two-time founder and CEO and I'm also now an investor, now chief revenue officer. And I'm like yes, there are notes and undertones, themes of business but this really is my life story.

And they said, not a problem. This is the story we want to tell, because we need people to understand that it isn't just those front-facing items of being a top rep or being a CEO or scaling a company, that there's so much more behind that. And so, we entered into a contract for not one but two books. But the first one is my life story, everything we just talked about. The second one will come out down the road. It is more of a tactical revenue scaling playbook but I need some more time to write that.

Lauren (09:47):
Okay. So the first book, when should we expect it to come out then? 

Mary (09:50):
It's available September 19. And the pre-order link is available now. It's called “Destination; Remarkable.: Surviving the Dark Side of Success.”

Lauren (10:03):
We'll make sure to include a link too to all of that. So, okay. Just to circle back, so you basically scripted the first piece of it, your water under the bridge, which is so authentic, right? That's hard, that's hard. You listen to your authentic self but that's hard to do when you've already made that much progress and invested that much time. So, I mean, even just listening to some of your podcasts leading up to this, what you're putting out there is vulnerable. It's bold. It's probably scary. Where have you found the courage or what has led you to be able to put this out there? Is the intent to help others, kind of lift up others? One of the quotes I think you have on your website is just the idea of being significant. I'd love to hear more about what that means to you and how you bring that into the workplace, how you're bringing that into your book. 

Mary (10:54):
I was so scared for so many years of my career to ever admit that I made a mistake. I was a perfectionist, and I was just deathly scared that anyone would ever think I was anything less than perfect. My childhood and upbringing, I had an alcoholic mother, and the verbal and physical abuse was so difficult for me to grow up under and understand how to be as a human. I always felt I was never good enough and that everything was wrong. And so a lot of that carried into my desire to succeed because I was constantly just trying to prove to myself that I could be successful, that I could win. And I hid every vulnerability. I made sure nobody ever saw one ounce of weakness from me. I became a very strong, independent woman with a hardened heart. And at no cost would I ever let anybody know what was truly going on, because I never wanted to create doubt that I couldn't accomplish something or do something.

So that's a very sad way to get through life. But when I entered into my early 30s,  I became a Christian. When I was 29 years old I started a process of healing and started a whole new way of living, what they call a rebirth. And the first thing I had to do was heal all of those holes and wounds in my heart. And when I realized through that healing how broken I was, there were days I just couldn't believe I had lived my life the way I had lived it. And what I thought was, there are other people out there who are like me. And nobody ever showed me the way, nobody ever mentored me. Nobody ever showed me a different way of living. I had mentors, I had people who believed in me and developed me professionally, and they were amazing.

But I never had that person who just modeled for me the fact that it's okay to not be okay. And that it's okay to not have it together. Because the DNA, what was ingrained in me growing up, was that when I wasn't okay or when I did something wrong or something that wasn't perfect, there was a very massive negative repercussion. And so I built this fabric of my life that I could never make a mistake because I just did not want to deal with the wrath of the consequence of what it was to not be perfect. And so there was so much healing and acknowledging that I'm actually perfectly made as an imperfect woman and that's ok. And so all of a sudden, when I gave myself permission to not have to have it all together every single day, this whole new world opened up for me.

And I just felt like I grew so much stronger and I started to acknowledge I'm growing in comfort and telling my story. I have this new confidence and courage that I can share what has transpired, and that it might help open up that door or that conversation for the next person to look in the mirror and say, maybe it's okay if I'm also not 100 percent. And so what's interesting is when I started to do that, it really took some people by surprise in my network, because I had always been up to that point, this perfect polished, well spoken ninja when it came to anything. I have been on so many stages, podcast interviews, you name it, with flawless execution. So when they saw a different side of me, it was surprising for a lot of people. But then the best thing happened. I had message upon message upon message upon message of how encouraging and meaningful it was to prove that point. There is a podcast interview I did on a really well-known podcast in the revenue sales marketing space. And the guy, every May he reposts this interview. So it's a few years old, and he reposts this interview because it's mental health awareness month. And on this episode, I do not know why, I just felt so led and so compelled to just share.

Mary (15:00):
And when this episode circulates, the messages pouring into my LinkedIn DMs are the most heartwarming, affirming messages from men and women. It's very personal about becoming a mother and all that and the mental health challenges I had and being a working professional and holy smokes, those messages give me every ounce of courage, confidence, and fuel in the tank to continue to go down this path, even when it may be a little bit inconvenient for me as a professional. But Lauren, really the biggest thing is I've stopped caring what other people think because I'm right with the Lord, and I'm right in my heart, and I know the plans God has for me. And creating me wasn't a waste, and I'm not a mistake. And I am good enough, and I am perfect in his image. And he created me to go through the life that I did. And now I have the story to tell. And I believe that story is what is helping other people navigate their own journeys. And so I will forever stand proud on this podium and share this message as long as he has me on the podium.

Lauren (16:12):
So amazing. So I also feel like not only is it coming from a place of vulnerability but it's normalizing. And normalizing I think is just life, right? Different challenges people go through, all different variants, different shades of gray, if you will. And I think you're also bringing it in a way where you're putting yourself out there but as you alluded to earlier, you've people who encourage you, like business coaches and professional coaches, but you are not always talking about that, those under pieces, you know? And I feel like some of that shows up in weird ways you don't even realize. And so if you're getting to that core, and if you're at least putting yourself out there, it's helping to, I think, not just bring up the next generation but other people who are around you. So I'm excited for this book. And that you're willing to share. Because that's a scary thing to do,  especially in those worlds where it's so digital and it can catch fire in a different kind of way.

Mary (17:15):
Yes. And I've been so private about it, even in my marriage and with my new family and spoiler alert, I don't have a relationship with my birth family anymore but I got married into the most amazing, amazing family that ever existed. And my mother-in-law is like my mom now, and she has been for the last 10 years, and I love her so much, and she's so good to me. And I got through the final stages of proofreading and I have read this book cover to cover so many times, and they asked me to proofread one last time, and I said, I can't, I've read it so many times and I've lived it. So there's gonna be typos in there and I won't see them.

Lauren (17:51):
I hear you.

Mary (17:52):
Oh my gosh. I asked her if she would read it cover to cover, and I've been so private about the things in my life. And I told her, and I warned her, there was a disclaimer, take your time with this. But she said she couldn't put it down and she read it straight through pretty much. And then afterward, she just needed to sit in silence and digest and she couldn't even come up with the words of what to say to me afterward. And she finally got the words together and called me and she just could not believe what I have endured and what I have been through. And she cannot believe the output and the product of the woman I am today based on what I came from. And she was just so kind and loving in the words she shared and how grateful that she is that I'm in her family and I married her son.

And we created this amazing beautiful boy, my son. And we include her in everything we do. And that she's such an important part of my life. Usually mother-in-laws and daughter-in-laws just don't have that type of a bond and relationship. But she was definitely taken aback. And it was also very encouraging for her to tell me how moved she was, the fact she couldn't put it down. And she says, it's just so crazy. I've known you for the last 10 years, I've known you for at least almost 25% of this story. And there's so much I didn't know in the battles you were fighting and what you were dealing with. And anyway, I really do hope people understand in this book that it was very difficult to put pen to paper things my husband doesn't even know. Obviously my mother-in-law didn't even know. But I do feel very compelled that this is going to help people.

Lauren (19:30):

Yeah. I think we also show up every day, right? We get to work or go through whatever it is we're going through but we're not aware of everything that's happening, right? With others. And so I think it's also that reminder to be kind.

Be grateful, throw people a bone to help lift up each other, that kind of we concept. So many good things. So I know we're close at our time here but I feel like we can keep going and I would love to hear more. I know we'll be able to keep going as the book comes out. And like I said, we'll include links. Anything you want to share as you look ahead? You've had this journey, the book's getting ready to roll out, there's going to be another one that's going to be off the heels of that too, right? You're starting this new role. Anything kind of takeaways you think for folks, if they're either stepping into a new role or if they're kind of in that entrepreneur hat, if they're kind of struggling with things. You've seen it from so many angles. How do you approach each day or how do you feel like you can, how do I better that next step? I'd love just to hear, because you've got it from so many lenses. I’d love to hear how you approach your lens for growth, which is what you're doing, right? 

Mary (20:51):
Yes. It's interesting to go from being an individual sales producer to a leader to a CEO to an individual sales producer to a CEO and now in a leadership position again. And there are so many different lenses. And when you wear those distinct hats, the way you show up is very different in those roles. And so now that I'm coming off the heels of being a CEO and entrepreneur and stepping back into a leadership position as a chief revenue officer, the way I approached this was just getting the lay of the land and understanding the way everything worked. I think because I'm so fast paced and high urgency, and I'm a big problem solver, usually I could be described as a bull in a china shop. I just get it and go for it.

And I'm also a little bit of a maverick, and I haven't always been the easiest to get along with because I'm so fast paced and high urgency. So one of the first things I had to do, because I care so much about Payroll Network, which has recently been rebranded as PNI●HCM, and I'm so excited for this journey and I'm looking forward to it. This isn't going to be a quick stop for me. I want to be here. I want to be here for a big, big chapter of my life. And I had a decision to make when I first embarked on that. I know what I'm capable of. And I've had to be this lone wolf maverick for the last five and a half years as a CEO. And everything like the buck stopped with me. 

I made the decisions. I was five executives in one and did execution in client work. They call it the chief everything officer. I didn't have a lot of people I could rely on. I also didn't have people I really had in my circle I could evaluate decisions with because I was the tip of the spear. And walking into this scenario with an unbelievable team of accomplished, loving, caring, knowledgeable, brilliant executives, I had to reframe how I was going to show up and do work. Because that's a very different environment going from five executives in one to actually having five executives, actually seven. And so it was a whole shift for me to go into. I got the lay of the land, I learned who the people were. One of my favorite courses in college was about organizational behavior theory and management and understanding the inner workings of each person and how they fit into a larger puzzle.

And then deciding how you're going to show up and how you fill in on that, how you communicate, how you align with others so you can be woven into the fabric of that team and not be the disruptor or the the person who's kind of sitting out on the sidelines. And how do you truly, truly get integrated? So for me it was a lot of being curious and observing and asking questions and diving in a little bit here, and then pulling back a little bit, diving in, pulling back a little bit. There was a little bit of friction at first, how to figure people out and they needed to figure me out. But then I had a data set I could start to interpret and make decisions from on how I was going to fit into this leadership team and really be honored and valued in my role.

Because I've never had a chief revenue officer, it wasn't specific to me, but I really like what I can bring to the table or a CRO could bring to the table. And so doing that level of investigative work on the front end, I think was what was so transformative in building what the path was to go forward. And so because of that initial time, I guess an investment on the front end, now we are this one cohesive unit. We so genuinely care about each other. We know what our short campaigns are, and there's a lot of grace. There's no finger pointing. We're just able to identify like, hey, this isn't so-and-so's specialty. Maybe it's fallen on their plate in the past. Let's move that. Let's figure this out. So now we are able to take this goal of tripling in five years, and we're able to tackle it because we have alignment. That wouldn't have been possible if I just came in, like, I'm going to handle this and that, which I've been known to do in the past. So I think that's my biggest takeaway from being in transition, going into this new role. And hopefully that's helpful advice to people: winning together is a lot more fun. I've had to learn that.

Lauren (25:01):
Absolutely. No, that's so fair. And it's easier set than done too, right? And it also takes a certain volume of resources and the right players in the right seats, as you alluded to earlier. And clarification on strategy and all these kinds of things to be able to come together to do that. So it was so much easier said than done but it sounds like you're sinking into a great new home and I'm excited to see what's going to come out of all of it. And I think not just only for the organization and the growth goals and being able to shape it up but also just for your journey as you're going to be able to help share this and I think spread it to an even wider network too. 

Mary (25:39):
Thank you.

Lauren (25:40):
Thank you for your time and for sharing a little bit more, for giving us a little bit of a teaser for what's to come. And like I said, we'll link to the book and some of those resources and that podcast—I'd love to listen to that podcast you mentioned and go from there. So thank you again, Mary.

Mary (25:58):
Thank you for having me.

Lauren (25:59):
All right. We'll be in touch soon.

We talked with Andre about:

• Leveraging clients pain points to build trust and add value
• Filling in the gaps of clients' financial education to provide unique support
• The importance of a well-rounded financial team to rally around clients

About Andre K. Kwan:

On his journey through real estate and lending, Andre Kwan discovered an interest in advising athletes on how to build wealth and capitalize on financial growth opportunities. This led him to co-found Magna Carta Wealth, a financial advisory firm that educates athletes on legacy planning and maintaining financial security. 

Featured Resources 

• Andre’s LinkedIn Profile
• Magna Carta Wealth
• Andre and PrimeLending

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren (00:02):
All right, Andre, so let's do this. So for those listening, I don't even know how long we have known each other. A long time.

Andre Kwan (00:09):
Yeah. About 10 years or so from the University Club.

Lauren (00:11):
Oh, yeah, I think so. We first met at the University Club years ago, and I know you're on the board there and involved with a number of things but we're going back and forth and we're just always chatting. But you're totally in financial services where we are too. And so I'm excited to hear specifically today about one of the initiatives you're involved with around athletes. I'll let you go into it but before that, if you don't mind just sharing a little bit of your background and what you do on a day-to-day basis.

Andre (00:42):
Sure. My name is Andre Kwan. I'm a co-founder of Magna Carta Wealth. Before that, for the last 20 years, I've been specializing in real estate and finance as well as management. Then just through it all, seeing what was happening on the landscape. I went to Ohio State. I'm a big believer in sports and athletics and kind of the athlete's journey, and as things continue to progress, right? So you have these contracts that are starting to get upward of $500 million and that's great. But what happens to those brand new athletes who are undrafted free agents or just trying to make a roster or even other things we've branched out and seen. An example like women's sports, the disparity in pay and how do we help them as well?

Anyway, Magna Carta Wealth is a consulting firm that basically helps athletes build their financial super teams. What I mean by that, our core focus is trying to match athletes with several different categories. So financial planning, tax planning, real estate lending, and insurance are kind of our core principles of where we try to connect these athletes. And specifically because that's where we saw the biggest need. So when we first started out with Magna Carta Wealth, myself and my co-founder, Stuart Gill, he was an Olympic-level athlete who went on to become an executive for a company by the name of Exos. Exos is a national company and their claim of fame is they train the most NFL-level athletes. So think of college players or whatever else trying to make the NFL. 

They train anywhere between 100 to 150 student athletes and maybe about 70 to 80 or so get drafted into the NFL each year. So seeing that, we wanted to be able to create resources because we realized the age demographic for these kids is somewhere between 19 to 22 years old. And a majority of the issues typically happen because their lineage or their parents or their friends don't have that experience when it comes to how do you manage multi-million dollars, let alone just all the different components, whether it's an insurance claim or what's kind of famous for all these athletes now is that when we file taxes, whether it's federal, state, uh federal's easy, right? There's one or two forms you're going to fill out if you own a corporation or not, but on the state side, they can be filing up to 15, 20 returns a year. So that gets kind of out of hand fairly quickly. So that's why we kind of built this system in terms of how to help that. I want to see people, especially athletes, preserve their opportunity, right? How do you build wealth? Because that timeframe for an athlete is much, much different than for a regular professional. 

Lauren (03:28):
Okay. So to back up a bit. Talking about athletes here, did you all stumble onto this problem? Was it just from your conversations? What was from your co-founder's experience? I mean, were you seeing your friends who were having these issues? How did you go, okay, there's a real need here and we feel like we can help to solve it?

Andre (03:50):
Sure. Just because we're here in lovely San Diego, I did kind of back into it at first. So being in the real estate and lending industry, we were starting to see more and more athletes like skateboarders and X Games athletes trying to figure out how to buy homes. Their biggest issue when they're trying to use conventional financing is they don't have conventional type of income, right? They might be getting sponsorship deals from companies or skateboard companies. And it may only be, hey, we're gonna pay you for this year but usually for lending, for it to be considered stable income, they're supposed to have three years of income and have a good probability that the income is going to continue. So seeing that is like, okay, cool. We shouldn't eliminate this opportunity to help these specific kinds of clients. So what do we do about it? Part of it is aligning yourself with companies that offer unique programs as well as kind of see the vision, right? Like how do we help a skateboarder who’s on their second deal try to figure out how to buy the home they really want versus you don't qualify at all. So there's a fine line to it all.

Lauren (05:00):
Okay. So out of curiosity, because again, when you think athlete, how are you defining that? You mentioned Olympic-level skateboarders. I'm sure there are pro surfers in San Diego, right? There's NFL players. I mean, I myself am not a huge sports person, so I wonder how you guys are putting a fence around this to be able to define who you're working with? Or is this like a commonality between all athletes you're seeing?

Andre (05:29):
So our specialty and where we focused was mostly the NFL because of that Exos relationship. In addition to that, a lot of those things are kind of already built out, parameters such as there's 1,696 athletes who are in the league each year. And that number is turned over probably somewhere between 30 to 40% each year. We know the beginning contract for an NFL athlete is somewhere around the hundred thousand dollars range. So that's kind of the parameters we typically were working with. And then kind of being able to quickly match those clients with advisors who have specialties in that area. It’s a little bit tougher when it gets to, as an example, I have a really good friend who was a professional tennis player for many, many years but those earnings can go up and down. You see that versus NBA players, who are one of the most unique and one of the best. But the challenge was the quantity, right? There's only typically 12 to 15 players on a team, and the great thing about them, all their contracts are guaranteed, whereas in the NFL, not every contract is guaranteed; a pretty large percentage are unguaranteed or non-guaranteed, if you will.

Lauren (06:47):
And how are you finding these athletes? Because it's not an easy group I'm sure to tap into. Is it like you sort of able to get into work with one, do a great job, and go through word of mouth? Or how are you reaching these audiences?

Andre (07:02):
Yeah, great question. Word of mouth is obviously the easiest component. And then as you've worked with an athlete or the coach, they'll be like, hey, this is how I got it done so then they'll do it that way. And then on top of that too, my co-founder lives in LA and I forgot who said it, but you know every athlete wants to be an entertainer and every entertainer wants to be an athlete. So there's a cross-section in there in terms of what we were able to come up with. And on top of that, we try to make it very purposeful, right? We want to have our marketing speak directly to what those athletes are going through. Like what we just mentioned. How in the world if you've never filed a tax return or your parents have never filed 15 tax returns, are you going to be able to do that?

Having the steps to walk them through was kind of a big belief for us, right? Like understanding their challenges, listening to them. But more than anything, I think, Lauren, to answer your question, it's building trust, right? Most of these athletes don't have a support system that has come from that kind of financial literacy or background or lineage. So trying to build that trust is really where it all starts, right? We're happy to give away as many strategies or different experiences or results that we've come up with. And the thing is, in our field, in the majority of the fields I listed, you have to be licensed to be able to do it. So you could want to write your own mortgage, you could want to do your own financial plan, and you could try to do all those things but usually you have to work with licensed professionals. So a little bit of all those components.

Lauren (08:35):
To be able to get that advice as well. So then, with that being said, when you're working with athletes, is it usually when they're in the heat of their career or is it post-career? Where do you typically kind of support them in that journey?

Andre (08:51):
So typically we're trying to work on the front end as much as possible, right? What we've found is that the landscape continues to change. For example, one of the big rulings that has changed the entire sports world was the ruling for NIL, which is name, image, and likeness. Basically a couple years back, the NCAA started to allow these athletes to kind of generate compensation based on their name, image, and likeness, which was never, ever an opportunity before. As an example, you have these athletes who are signing up to schools who have never played a down at all making millions of dollars before they ever step on the field. So imagine when you were 17 or 18 years old, if you came up with a $500,000 contract with a car company to advertise their car.

What would you do? How would you spend that money? I'm sure I would've made a lot of mistakes had I got a $500,000 check when I was 17 or 18. And on top of that too, it's not really $500,000 after you take out all the taxes and everything else. I could have spent $500,000 and been in the hole. So just trying to learn these little things and then share, that's the best way we're able to approach this kind of challenge and solution.

Lauren (10:10):
Yeah. So interesting. And then to help them prepare for that, do you guys do educational workshops or is it one-on-one sessions, or how are you helping to kind of coach these athletes as they're getting ready for a post-athletic career?

Andre (10:26):
So we have done some in-person meetings. Typically when these athletes are training, we are trying to catch them as part of the training session. Obviously they're working on their physical component; as an NFL athlete you're working on how fast you can run, how much you can, bench press or squat or jump or whatever else. But as they were eating, we'd cater lunch and be like, hey, these are things to consider when you went to school at USC and all of a sudden you got drafted by Cleveland. Here's what you need to know going into that kind of opportunity as well as a new city and how do you kind of build from there.

Lauren (11:05):
And then you're able to support them, I'm sure. But I'm assuming you also have a pool of partners who specialize in working with athletes. Is that true? Or how do you make sure you're able to be that support system for them when they go, well, I need this and I've got someone you can refer them out to the appropriate person that gets them and where they're at.

Andre (11:25):
Yeah, that's correct. So usually what we think is Magna Carta is kind of like the quarterback, if you will, for the situation and we're trying to plug and play because a lot of these athletes are working with an agent, they might already have a financial advisor. They might already have one or two of the professions in there. We're trying to take an assessment to figure out who they have and what is missing, and then go about trying to connect them. Because some of the licensing is state-specific as an example, right? You might work with a real estate agent here in San Diego, unfortunately we don't have the Chargers here anymore, but let's just say you know somebody went to Boise State, they got drafted by the LA Chargers, and they have nobody they know in LA so how do we work with geographic-specific professionals to help them out?

Lauren (12:12):
 Yep. That makes sense. That are specific to their needs and where they're at. Okay. Out of curiosity, are there any athletes you feel are model examples for how to manage where they're at and their financial journey?

Andre (12:27):
What a great question. I think two that really just pop off our list, and because they're kind of different, but Rob Gronkowski as well as Marshawn Lynch. The reason why those two kind of jump off is because they were able to make their living strictly off endorsement deals, and they saved every penny of their NFL contracts. So because of that saving, and hopefully if they work with the right team, they're able to invest and have that money compounding year over year. And those guys played a significant amount of time. If they're doing the right moves and they're conservative, living off interest or some other things, they're set for life and more importantly, their families and legacies are set for life after that. 

Lauren (13:09):
Okay. Very good. Thank you for sharing this too. Well this is great. Anything else you want to add that you think would be helpful to share?

Andre (13:18):
Yeah, I think regardless if you're an athlete or not, we always are talking about how do you build the right team around you, right? Even when we're working with regular employees or founders of companies or self-employed people, they might have a great CPA but they don't have any financial plan. They might have a family member who’s a financial planner but they're doing their taxes wrong. They're going out and maybe buying a piece of real estate that is way over their head or they're just on a spending spree. So anyway, I say all that to say I believe in building a financial team that's well-rounded and communicating with each other because that's the biggest component, right? You could have five different professionals with five different kinds of plans and programs, and if they don't jive, something's got to give.

Going through an audit every single year, nobody likes the word audit or anything else, but it really helps if you're trying to get the best credit, the best loan programs, the best insurance rates—really having a sense of what's the income, what's the expenses, and organizing your financials, meaning what's in the bank, and on top of that too, the tax returns and everything else. I'll share a funny, funny story. Just a 10-second story. We're helping a coach who was buying a multimillion dollar home and his deposit, I want to say was $250,000. And typically when we do regular financing programs, you have to have the last two years’ tax returns filed and ready to go. Why this was crazy was because when he applied, he got his offer accepted, everybody's happy, then hey, let's go get your financials, let's get this all ready. He didn't file his last two years’ tax returns.

Lauren (15:05):
Oh my gosh.

Andre (15:07):
That deposit of $200,000-plus was on the line. So you never want to be in that situation. That's why it's super important to be able to have everything organized and have your team in kind of a flow status or flow state. For most people, their real estate and their loan is typically 99% of the time their largest financial asset as well as liability. So we just want to make sure you do those things right. You know, you only typically have one or two chances at this.

Lauren (15:38):
Yeah. That's so fair. That's right. Very good. Well, this is so helpful. I appreciate your insights. It's really fun to hear more about this venture you're involved with too. And then also just the athlete side of it too because everyone isn't working with that audience on a day-to-day. I know there's a number of companies that are investing in this audience. We work with a lot of clients where they've got a target market but it's not always as refined. And so to be able to hear more of who you're helping, how you're specifically helping them, how you're reaching them, and what those problems are, I think is really valuable. Again, especially since it's an audience that you're not going to run into every day. So it's fun to hear more about that for sure. Thank you again.

Andre (16:20):
Of course. This was fun, Lauren. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having us on and definitely you guys are doing great things for your company and the community as well too. So whatever we can do to support, please let us know. But thank you so much. This was enjoyable.

Lauren (16:32):
Thanks. We appreciate it.

Andre (16:34):
Okay. Thank you so much.

We talked with Preston about:

• The importance of mentorship and accepting we all need help
• Acknowledging each other's personhood and emotions about money
• Letting life lead your money and not the other way around

About Dr. Preston Cherry:

Injecting transformative energy into every action he can, Dr. Preston Cherry, founder of Concurrent Financial Planning, is a prolific speaker and assistant professor of finance at the University of Wisconsin. He helps leaders and advisors start building from the human side of relationships to better understand how money integrates into comprehensive planning. His Life Money Balance approach prioritizes financial wellness to create a transformative experience. 

Featured Resources 

• Dr. Preston Cherry’s LinkedIn Profile
• Dr. Preston Cherry’s Instagram
• Dr. Preston Cherry’s Twitter
• Dr. Preston Cherry’s Website
• Concurrent Financial Planning Website

Full Audio Transcript

Dr. Preston D. Cherry
Yep. All right.

Lauren Hong
All right. Let's do this. So good to see you, Dr. Cherry. Thank you for your time today.

Dr. Cherry 
Yes. Thank you, Lauren.

Lauren Hong
All right. Well, I'm excited to hear from you. I know we were just chatting before about all the busyness of life, and I’d kind of love to start there before we dive into the bio and all of that. We will include links to your bio below and any things we talk about here. I know you're involved in so many different initiatives, podcasts, and all kinds of things. So with the craziness of life, to get back to that point, how do you find the time? Because you're teaching, you're leading your own firm, you're giving back, and so much more. So how do you make it all happen and just do it like it's no big deal.

Dr. Cherry 
<laugh>, <laugh> Well first of all, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I wouldn't advise doing so many things but that said, they're interlinked because they're all focused on financial wellness, well-being, life well-being, just advancing the human condition. Lauren, that's the common thread. And when through each one of these platforms, whether it be talking to advisors directly, students or clients, or just in general to corporate America, whatever stage, if I'm on stage then people are receiving a message and I want that message to be transformative. That's what it's all about, Lauren, so that's the common thread. I'm hoping that all the threads I'm doing can receive this energy and I can keep going. However, that said, <laugh>, that said sometimes it's not advisable.

Lauren Hong
No, it's fair. I know when you're passionate about something, it's easy to dive into it. And I think you've touched so many folks and their lives with your work, especially the next generation too. And I'd love just to hear why the next gen and when you were growing up, did you have similar mentors or leaders who kind of helped you lift you up to your career and where you are today?

Dr. Cherry 
Right. So mentorship is very important to me. I just made a post earlier, I think it was about three or four weeks ago. I said, rarely is someone self-made. And I know a lot of people like saying, hey, you know, I'm self-made. I worked hard, da da, da, da. And I'm like, somewhere along the line, an individual or a team of individuals helped you in some way—they invested in you, they supported you, they championed you in some sort of way. So somebody did that for me, Lauren, my mentor at Prairie View. As a matter of fact, I had two of them there. My parents. I kicked off the first episode of my podcast with my parents. They took two episodes.

I mean, you're talking about 45 years of marriage and having two adult children but they invested in us. So all that to say I've had several mentors and still have some to this day. They took the time to, to, to say, okay, we believe in you. And my thing is, I tell folks all the time, don't make fools out of the folks who bring you here. And life is not linear. So I've had some rough spots in my life for sure. That said, I kept going, not only just for my inner self but I didn't want to make fools out of the folks who got me here. So I want to pass that along. I am passionate about mentoring others, whether it be career changers, people in school, whatever it may be. I just want to believe in them as somebody believed in me.

Lauren Hong
I love that. So I love the piece too, that you talk about having to be able to give your time, right? And to be present, to be able to give back. For someone who is thinking about or wanting to be a mentor to help bring up that next gen, do you have any recommendations about how to foster that kind of relationship or ways you found to be really meaningful so that individual can get the most out of it? And you can get the most out of it too?

Dr. Cherry 
Yes. It’s to really be present and just to take a listen, be connective, be people. How do you do that? I mean, that's just very cliche. You can be connected by being vulnerable, sharing your story when it's time. We've all been in places where you hear a story, somebody tells a story, and it's like, what, that's me too. And then it's an opportunity, it's an environment, it's encouragement to say, okay, I want to tell my story too. Can I connect with you and can I trust you? And sometimes when you have somebody you connect with through vulnerability and courage, that encourages someone else to be vulnerable and courageous as well and take that first step of engagement. So that's really how you gain someone's trust and say, okay, let's swap stories here. Let me share mine. And then also, I had this saying, when you open up the heart, you open up the mind. And when you open up the heart, people are willing, more willing, to receive education, guidance, instruction. All of that. So that's how you lead with compassion.

Lauren Hong 
That's so fair. And then are the folks who you're mentoring and working with, are they mostly in the financial services or financial planning space? Who is in that circle? How have they found you or you found them?

Dr. Cherry
So I'm reached out to all the time. Obviously I'm in front of students on campus. And for professionals, I've done advisor coaching before and still do when people want to reach out. I have office hours. Matter of fact, I'm about to start posting those in a little while because I get so many emails and people in my DMs and everything, and they're saying, you know, Dr. Cherry, I need some time with you career wise, practice management for senior advisors, all of these things. So then when I'm on stage, I'm talking to people and they want to get five minutes or 10 minutes or schedule a meeting. So it can be students, advisors doing their practice, career changers. I mean, it could be a lot of things.

Lauren Hong
And then are there any kind of themes or trends you're hearing, conversations with, or issues you feel like you're addressing quite frequently? I'd love just to hear if there's anything since you've got the pulse, some questions that are happening within this industry. You know, if there's any kind of commonalities to bring up that next gen or help to shape the current leadership today.

Dr. Cherry 
Well, that's a good question. The big thing now is being more human. Being more people centered, taking account of emotions and people's what I call personhood, which is their values, experiences, attitudes, and belief systems. All with their emotions about money. Yep. Relationship with money. So being more human/people centered, whether you want to call it financial psychology, money psychology, mindset. There's a whole bunch of approaches you take for it. But when you talk about financial psychology in particular, you are talking about considering those additives, or what I explain, which is how do people feel? Because the how, with our relationship to money both past and present, is going to help unlock information we have inside of us that's going to influence the numbers side.

Because all of that information goes into the numbers. I posted earlier it was like, well, what does all that have to do with the money? People were like, when are you going to get to the money? Oh. I said, well, all of that; it has to do with everything, right? So that's the big thing I see now. But that said, it's like a Puff Daddy remix, right? <laugh> There's nothing new. There's always an original song. And yeah, some folks have been doing this a long time—partnering and elevating and empowering people to be more human. It's been done for a long time now. It's just all the rage.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah, I hear you. So there's a transaction of the business and the deliverables, if you will, or what have you, just the hard numbers, the science behind it, etc. But the human side can't be ignored. And that's obviously both if you're on the advisor side, but then of course more on the practice management side of training, growing employees, process management, etc. So I know you've got more of, we'll call it a holistic approach to finance. And I'd love to hear your philosophy or thinking around that, or what you feel makes your approach different? Because I know that word was kind of thrown out a lot. Holistic and wellness and all those kinds of things. What do you feel is your bend on it?

Dr. Cherry
Well, good, great question, Lauren. So first of all, planning is a process. And I guess a synonym to that would be journey—your walk, your pathway, however you want to say it. I want people to experience, or at least aspire. One of my favorite words is aspire. What do you aspire to? What's your aspiration? Let's discover that for a while. What does that look like to you? What are the things you don't want to do anymore so you can get to the things you do want to do? So let's be bold.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah.

Dr. Cherry
And also too, let's retire some things that are not working well, right? So not everything is trial all the time. When you talk about money, money could be happy or joyful I should say. Because you know, happiness is on a spectrum. But it could be joyful, it could be triumphant.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah.

Dr. Cherry 
So to answer your question succinctly, planning, like life, is a process. It is continual. You have life stages, life events. My mom and dad say all the time, you gotta roll and adapt, you know? You gotta roll and adapt. So when you say comprehensive,  it means across life stages, it means handling the ebbs and flows of life. And also how the numbers integrate, Lauren. So one decision's going to affect another. So you have risk management, all your insurances, your employee benefits, your stocks, your restricted stock units, your retirement, your cash management, tax, investments, estate. Okay. So you're going to an integration of those areas along with the other things I mentioned.

Lauren Hong 
Interesting. So I’m going to shift gears a little bit here. I know you've got what you call the Life Money Balance approach, right? And you've been involved in your leadership with the Center of Financial Wellness and at the University of Wisconsin Green Bay. I'd love just to hear a little bit more about how you came up with that Life Money Balance piece of it? And I'm sure that also impacts some of your leadership involvement with these different places as well.

Dr. Cherry
Yes. So thank you for asking this. Life Money Balance is kind of like a child of mine, really. <laugh> It  started through a transformational process. This is what I'd like to share for others; I want them to experience their own transformational journey. I've shared this a few times, so I'll be short with it. You know, life is grand most of the time. I was inputted with a lot of self-worth, self-confidence, self-value, all these things like access to education, and so on and so forth. But there was a period in life when it was not going very well. And so, it was a long season, as my mother puts it, and I had to figure out what I didn't want to do anymore so I could figure out what I wanted to do.

And that was aspiration. So it was a process, it was a process admitting where I am, acknowledging how I feel about it, and taking some action. I call out the awe moment. So it's more than taglines. All of these—the Life Money Balance, the transformation, the awe moment, the process, let your life lead your money not your money lead your life. That is Life Money Balance. So your money is working concurrently—the name of the firm—to create your life's design. All of that came from an internal feeling and transformation. I wanted to put it down on paper and put it into the firm. And I'm like, wow, if this feels this way, then by golly, I want to pass that on to some other folks so they can experience their own version.

Lauren Hong
Yeah. That's so fair. I feel like in life there's so many distractions, right? And what the world's telling us we should be, or other people or this or that in your own head. And so being able to sort of put that on paper so you can say, okay, this is my story arc, or this is where we're going. And then like you said, let that actually drive the money, the money kind of follows after it. Because like we were talking about when we started too, right? Passion. If you're passionate, it will just sort of come out, kind of oozes out, right? And then other things attract, like positivity attracts positivity often, and like things attract like things. So it's a good thing.

Dr. Cherry 
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Lauren Hong
So one more question for you here. Because you've got a really unique vantage point, being at a firm with an education hat, speaking, podcast, all these sorts of things, are there any trends you are seeing or shifts in this industry? I know you talked earlier about the human side of it, right? And being able to talk through it. Do you see any other more service-based trends or practice management trends or even education trends, things that are happening with courses, new coursework that's happening? I'd love to hear about that.

Dr. Cherry  
Yes. I mean, so our profession, our industry, is capturing a lot of things, right? You can do financial services, right? But financial planning in and of itself, like financial coaching and even financial therapy, all of those aspects that you can use within the process as an advisor, giving advice, those are professions, particularly financial planning. Because financial planning is a profession that follows a process and so on and so forth. So you can break that down to personal finances too. And when you break it down to personal finances, you bring in elements like financial coaching and financial education and financial wellness. And when you bring all that in, then yes, our profession, how we help people attain financial wellness so they can have a better well-being, is changing. You're seeing interactive platforms like on social media, IG, Twitter, TikTok, all this stuff. Folks are utilizing those platforms to invite people and at scale to receive information.

It's incredible actually. And you're seeing financial planners as well with kind of like the old school or even newer school process. They're adapting their platforms to become more inviting and  the like, so the way we are connecting with the audience and inviting people in service models, all of that is changing rapidly, very rapidly.

Lauren Hong
Yeah. So much more accessible.

Dr. Cherry 
Mm-hmm.

Lauren Hong
Yeah. Very good. Well, this is so insightful. I appreciate you taking some time during your day and just sharing some insights about your philosophy and process and those you work with. And also thank you for your time to give back and uplift the next generation that’s excited about getting into this space and for them to hear your experience, but then also to serve those who are currently in this space and to hear from your vantage point as well. So any final thoughts?

Dr. Cherry 
Well, first of all, thank you for having me. The torch needs to continue to be passed. Younger folks have a whole bunch of energy to do their thing. And then people forget about Gen X, by the way. And I'm a Gen X myself. I'm like, why are you just skipping over folks? So my last piece of advice, Lauren, is for anyone listening to begin your journey. Even if you're an advisor and you want to do something different for your practice, just start, get your small wins. I know some of that may be cliche too, but I've had a little bit of trouble here lately with self-doubt. And I'm like, no, just take little bitty steps and get you some wins. Yeah. So that's for everybody. Start, be courageous, be vulnerable, and get you some wins.

Lauren Hong 
Absolutely. Yeah. I, I hear you. Because it's like, okay, you got that little win, then you just put yourself out there a little further. You got that little win, but then that little win turns into a little bigger win. And so it just snowballs. So yeah, that's good advice. We see that on this end too, because sometimes, you're working with folks and they go, I don't know if I really want to pick that target. I know I kind of should, but I might be excluding these people. Sometimes you have to just push or just sort of go in and lean into something, right? And it opens up other doors and opens up other doors. Leadership isn't easy, right?

Dr. Cherry 
No, it's sure not. <laugh>

Lauren Hong 
Goodness. Well, thank you again for your time. And like I shared earlier, we'll share links below and take it from there.

Dr. Cherry 
All right. Thank you for having me. It's been fun.

Lauren Hong 
Oh, absolutely. Have a good one. Thank you.

We talked with Jackie about:

• Building a connection by helping clients identify their needs
• Recognizing clients' various personality types to provide better customer service
• Trading quotas for goals for your financial advisors
  
  

About Jackie Mazur:

Jackie Mazur stepped into financial services using an educational approach that has continued to serve her and her team throughout her career. A pioneer in flat-rate financial planning, Jackie wanted to build her firm, Guide My Finances, to be an accessible resource for her community. On top of that, she’s the founder of the Financial Behavior Institute, helping financial advisors identify the nuances around financial beliefs and building relationships that align.

Featured Resources 

• Jackie Mazur’s LinkedIn
• Guide My Finances Website
• Financial Behavior Institute Website
• Financial Behavior Institute Linkedin

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong
Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited to chat with you, especially after watching your recent talk that was given to hundreds of people in the audience. I know you shared it virtually as well. So specifically around this idea of really how to better connect with clients. Before we get into that, I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey to where you got to today with your own firm and the research you've been doing, etc. So I'll let you share a little bit more to give a prerequisite before we dive in deeper.

Jackie Mazur

Yeah. So I don't know how far back I should go, but I started in the business—gosh, it's been almost 20 years. I was only 21 and I was just really finding my way, figuring out what did I want to do and how did I want to do it. And of course, at 21 you have no idea what's even available. So I started working for a company that was all about selling products, and I realized very quickly that I did not want to do that; I felt like a salesperson, not like an advisor. And so I ended up pivoting and at 23 I went out on my own, actually independent, under the supervision of a couple of veterans in the industry to make sure I wasn't getting myself into trouble. I also at that time went back and got my master's degree, got my CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ designation, and started teaching as an adjunct professor.

I was teaching financial planning and managerial finance at the college level. And it was really fun. It was a way, honestly, to subsidize my income at the time because I was trying to build from the ground up without a lot of help and needed to have that money coming in. But what I learned from that experience is how much I loved educating not only clients but also other advisors or other young professionals who wanted to become financial planners. And that was really the first time I had experience, I don't want to say coaching, but educating, teaching people who wanted to become financial planners in a way that felt really positive—to be able to expose more young people to our industry, to grow the financial planning network, have more people involved, and teach them about financial planning, not just about selling.

So that was really kind of the catalyst for when I started wanting to teach, but also when I started Guide My Finances. So my current financial planning firm, I started in 2009 after graduating and getting my CFP® while I was teaching, and I focused primarily on offering financial planning for a flat fee. At that time, nobody was doing that. It was something very new where I had advisors telling me, why would you take a residual business and make it transactional? You're making a huge mistake. And I said, well, that might be the case but I want to do the right thing and I want to be able to advise clients, so I'm going to do it anyway.

Lauren Hong 
Right.

Jackie Mazur 
Fast forward 15 years later and we've grown just so much. We now are managing almost $200 million in assets. I have a team of 800 people, I'm sorry, of eight people, not 800 people and we're bringing on five to 10 new clients a month. All organically, word of mouth, saying they want a financial plan that's unbiased. So it's through all of these experiences that I wanted to not only obviously continue to grow my practice but be able to teach other advisors how they can do the same thing.

Lauren Hong 
Mm-hmm.

Jackie Mazur
I was told not to do it this way but I think it is the way to do it. 

Lauren Hong
Well, you feel like you can best serve people and they can be well taken care of. Can you share a little bit more about your talk and getting to this idea of being able to really connect with clients. That's a lot of clients you're working with, especially to be able to bring on new clients. How are you cultivating those relationships, maintaining those relationships, even working with your team to be able to sort of pull out those nuances? Can we hear a little bit more about that side of things?

Jackie Mazur 
Yeah, so I think that for our existing clients, we know them really well. We really make an effort to understand what's going on in their lives beyond just the investments we're managing for them. We're a very goal-oriented firm. So when we're sitting down with clients at the beginning or every six months or every year or however frequently it is, we're really talking about what do you want to accomplish? And not everybody knows the answer to that. So it's figuring out how we help them get into that. An example is, I have a lot of clients who tell me I want to retire as soon as possible. 

Through asking questions and really engaging them and having that connection, what we find is that they don't actually want to stop working. They just hate their job <laugh> and they want something different but they feel tied to that or they're afraid to make a change. So by having these really open conversations with our existing clients, we can build this connection by helping them identify what it is they're communicating. They might say, I want to retire but they may not; they may just want to downsize their job, work a little bit less, have a more enjoyable career. Something along those lines. 

Lauren Hong 
Go ahead.

Jackie Mazur 
I was just going to say it's helping them identify what it is that they're communicating and then developing the strategy to help them reach it. And there's nothing more rewarding for both parties than helping somebody achieve the goals they've set out to achieve. And that builds an immense amount of trust.

Lauren Hong 
Is there anything you're doing in the discovery? Are you doing away with the traditional discovery? Are you training your team about how to be able to sort of better pull out those nuances? What approach are you taking to be able to set the foundation? Is it even happening in the prospecting phase of it? What are you doing to make sure it's that right fit and there's I guess that shared passion between you and your team and what you can bring to the table and the prospect or the current client?

Jackie Mazur 
So, yeah. So I think that's two things. So one, we don't have a questionnaire we ask people when we meet with them. My first question to prospects when they find us is, why are you reaching out to a financial planner today? 

And then I think one of the best things you can do is just be quiet and listen to what people are saying and ask questions to engage them rather than selling yourself. I heard years ago that the best conversations people have are ones where they do most of the talking. This is how they remember they've had a great conversation. And so let people share, ask questions to show you're listening and you're engaged in what they're saying.. And really dig into the big picture versus asking how much money do you have? How much can I invest for you? How is it being invested? It's not about the investments, it's about the bigger picture. And then the investments can be the secondary piece of the puzzle.

Lauren Hong 
So let's say they're kind of deep into the sales process, right? In that first meeting with them, have you already collected information or are just literally day one? How did you find us—just in listening to where they're at? So it's almost like doing away with a traditional onboarding.

Jackie Mazur 
So during the prospect meeting or that initial contact we are having a conversation about what are they seeking? Why are they looking for a financial planner today? Not just in general but what today made you reach out. Cause the chances are they've been thinking about it for a while but something may have happened recently that has made it have to happen today. I've reached a breaking point, my mother just passed away, I am overwhelmed at work and I need to find a solution. There's usually a trigger. I mean, not all the time but I would say a good amount that has made this sense of urgency. 

So if you can just ask questions about why today, what are you looking for? What's worked or hasn't worked? If they're leaving their old advisor, why, what weren't they providing you that you're looking for? And really get away from how much money's in your IRA. How much—it's not about that question.

Lauren Hong 
Transactional side of it if you want.

Jackie Mazur 
Yeah. It's more about that. Now after that initial meeting, we've already built a connection. We've talked about their goals, right? Yes, you need to get a sense of where they are from an income and asset perspective without digging into all of it. But we've built this level of connection. We now say okay, we're going to build a financial plan for a fee. So it actually doesn't matter how much money you have. You can have zero money saved or 10 million saved. This is how much I charge for my time to build out a plan. 

And what we found is that very frequently clients say, oh, this is what I've been searching for. I want to be able to work with somebody who can help me develop the strategy without selling me anything and without me having to move all my money to them on that first day. And so it's creating this ability to not even need the questionnaire until we're doing the planning. We will actually email them a list of documents we need to start the planning process.

Lauren Hong 
Right.

Jackie Mazur 
We collect them all, get them to us before the next meeting so we have the data to ask more questions but we don't even talk about most of those things on the first call.

Lauren Hong 
So you've got a team, right? Are you role-playing with your team to kind of help them learn how to kind of probe these questions out of prospects? Because for some people it's just sort of a natural thing and for other people it's just not as natural. How are you cultivating that culture to be able to make those connections with clients?

Jackie Mazur 
So I think number one, nobody has a quota of how much business they have to close in a month. I think this requirement to bring on a certain amount of clients or a certain amount of assets creates a sense of fear in the advisor the clients can feel. If somebody feels I better close this client, otherwise I'm going to lose my job, that client can hear that and feel that without even realizing it. So there's no such thing as that in our company. There's no quotas. There's goals we have, but they're not required. For the first six months anybody's working with me they sit in on the meetings, take notes, and do the planning. So they almost shadow me for six months to learn how I communicate, what the process looks like. They're doing the financial planning and they're sitting in all the meetings to learn firsthand while supporting me, taking notes and doing all the things that I don't have to do. So it's not paying somebody to do my job, it's paying somebody to support me while they're learning.

Lauren Hong 
That makes sense. Yep.

Jackie Mazur 
And then through that osmosis, they end up gathering the ability to do the same thing and not everybody's a great fit. I mean, not everybody can fit that mold, but those who love it do; they really are attracted to it and do an amazing job.

Lauren Hong
That makes sense. So one of the things we do here with our team is called DISC training. So you learn about different profiles and then you learn how to be able to better work with that individual based on the profile. And so you could be right in a meeting, you go, that's definitely a D person or that's definitely an I person. And so I sort of know this is what's important to them or this is a hot button. Now I know in your talk you've created these profiles of different kinds of people, right? Sort of avatars. Are you then also training your team on okay, this is that kind of avatar and these are the kinds of things they're gonna be looking for? Or how are you applying that kind of methodology toward your approach with maybe your recommendations or how you're fostering your company culture?

Jackie Mazur 
Yeah, so you mentioned this talk I did. I basically created the Financial Behavior Institute and through the institute I created a course to become certified as a Financial Behavior Planning Specialist. That course actually teaches client experience, communication, and financial planning, and does a deep dive into the eight different financial personalities or avatars as you said, to understand what certain clients are looking for, what their triggers are that have them walking out the door, how to best communicate with different personality types, etc. Everyone on my team has taken this course so they have an introduction to all of that, but when clients come in, we also label them within the office as a personality type. I know that for me personally, I don't love working with moguls or consumers. They're just not a good fit for me. And so if somebody comes in, and I see they’re a mogul, I send them somewhere else. Or hey, they're an architect, which to us means we better be really detailed with our explanation and our reasoning behind why we're making recommendations.

Lauren Hong
I think that was an engineer. Did you also coin that as an engineer in the talk?

Jackie Mazur 
The architect?

Lauren Hong 
Yeah.

Jackie Mazur
Yep. Almost all engineers are architects. I said I probably should have called it the engineer instead of the architect.

Lauren Hong
Because it fits.

Jackie Mazur
Then we have clients who are avoiders and we know if they're avoiders we better be very simple with our recommendations. Be very actionable and set things up in an automated way. So you may have somebody who's extremely detail oriented and relates more with that architect profile or somebody who's an avoider and just coming to you in the first place is overwhelming for them because they've always avoided their finances to begin with and they really just need someone to tell them, this is what you need to do. Let me set it up so you don't have to think about it again. Those are going to be two entirely different interactions.

Lauren Hong
Yes.

Jackie Mazur 
So if you're interacting this way with this person, it's not going to work or it's not going to work in the way that is going to feel supportive to that client. It's kind of twofold. It's identifying who they are, labeling this type of client, this client is this personality, and then knowing how to communicate and engage with that person or knowing they're not a good fit and sending them elsewhere, which is even sometimes the most valuable.

Lauren Hong
Yes, absolutely. Because then they're able to find that win-win for what they need and you know you're probably just not going to mesh with them in the right way, longer term.

Jackie Mazur 
Right. Exactly. It's understanding your core competencies and your company values or even your personal values and making sure they're aligned with the clients you're bringing on.

Lauren Hong 
Absolutely. Yeah. It's so critical to be able to have that authentic connection with who you're working with. 

Jackie Mazur 
Of course.

Lauren Hong 
Do you mind sharing a little bit more, because we talked a lot about I'll say a pre-client phase onboarding, but how about post-onboarding? What do you do to be able to maintain and continuously build those connections? Or do you have a cycle where you're doing outreach or are there client gifts or just quick notes to let them know you're thinking of them? What are you doing? 

Jackie Mazur
It's all of it. 

Lauren Hong 
Okay. Wow. So I love all the processes you've built into these concepts, but go ahead. 

Jackie Mazur 
So we definitely have client segments. And on the Financial Behavior Institute website, there's actually a client segmentation tool you can download if anybody is looking for how to do that. But we have our A clients, B clients, C clients, D clients, just like a lot of firms do. And depending on the tier, they are going to receive a different level of outreach, right? Everybody is going to get a birthday card or gift or something depending on where they're at. We are going to reach out to every single client at least twice a year, but we might be reaching out to our A clients once a quarter where our D clients we might be reaching out to twice a year. So it really kind of varies from there. I think the one key piece is how they fit into a different category isn't just about revenue, it's about personality and connection as well.

The clients you really connect with are easy to connect with and easy to spend time with and you're going to want to spend more time with them just by design, where you may have a client who is generating a lot of revenue but the interactions are not enjoyable, right? <laugh> So you might want to move them down a little bit down that list. So we have different strategies for each of those. I have a rule in the office: if somebody emails us, regardless of what category they're in, or if somebody calls, someone needs to respond within 24 hours, even if it's to say, we've received your email and we will get back to you in two weeks.

Lauren Hong 
Yep, yep, yep. 

Jackie Mazur 
Little things like that make an enormous difference. I know I've reached out to people and I don't even know if they got my email and I'm then a week later, hey, did you get this? Hey, did you get this? And meanwhile it was on their docket but they just didn't tell me.

Lauren Hong 
Yes.

Jackie Mazur 
Communication is huge regardless of the personality type to say, I've got it, I'm working on it, I can get this back to you at this period of time. If you need it sooner, let me know. And most people are not in a rush. They're happy just to know that you're working on, received it.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah, absolutely.

Jackie Mazur 
So communication is really important. I don't really do client events or anything like that, so it's reaching out via phone, reaching out via email. We work with a lot of clients who work for publicly traded companies. We track their stock and if a company's stock jumps 15% in one day, we're going to reach out to all those clients and say, hey, I don't know if you realized but your company stock jumped 15% today. Why don't we log into the system and see if we should sell any of it?

Lauren Hong 
Mm-hmm. 

Jackie Mazur 
And that's something I think a lot of advisors, at least the ones I communicate with, don't think about. So it's not, this is what we're doing for everybody, it's how do we connect with and serve and support our clients who have different needs.

Lauren Hong 
That makes sense versus it being sort of tiered by assets.

Jackie Mazur 
Correct. Yep.

I mean, obviously assets and revenue are how we run our businesses. But I have some clients who maybe we're making less money on but because we have a level of connection, they refer me a client a month. I'm not kidding. And so that is an A client for me, even though they specifically don't have enough money to be in that A tier. They're one of my top clients, they're my ambassador. So I don't want to only send them a birthday card or only reach out to them once a year because they're supporting me. I want them to feel supported. Those are your best clients, honestly.

Lauren Hong 
It's this correlation between connecting with clients and customer satisfaction that then ultimately creates longevity and referrals and sustainability.

Jackie Mazur
Yep.

Lauren Hong 
Oh my goodness. So fun. We're about at the top of our time but I feel like we could talk for quite some time on this. For anyone who’s looking to sort of better connect with clients or tools, I know you mentioned there's a few tools you've created that folks could glean from you. Do you have any quick wins if you will, or if there's one thing you would do, do you think it would be the 24-hour responding rule or that sort of thing? The one takeaway for connecting with clients.

Jackie Mazur 
I didn't prepare to answer that question, so let me think. <laugh>

Lauren Hong 
I threw it at you. 

Jackie Mazur 
I know. I do think the 24-hour response is huge. Think about when you reach out to somebody and you don't hear from them, how that makes you feel. Or if somebody replies to you immediately, how supported you feel by that person. So I think that is a very big one. I also think asking open-ended questions and then using active listening to actually hear what people are saying instead of waiting to talk is a huge communication skill and technique financial advisors should have or should try to develop because I think very often we have so much to share that we do so much talking and we end up overwhelming our clients instead of just letting our clients share their fears, their goals, what they're feeling, how they're feeling, and then listening and connecting with that.

And there's a communication technique called mirroring, which is sometimes the cadence you speak or the demeanor you have but other times it's just connecting on a similar situation. A client is sharing a fear of the market or something and you can share a story about a feeling you had that was similar or a client who had a similar experience but how you were able to help turn that around and build that connection through storytelling—without being overbearing with your stories and making sure they've had a chance to talk too. <laugh> That's a nuance, right?

Lauren Hong 
<laugh> Yeah, it's so true. It's this balance. It's that empathy side to be able to make sure people feel heard. And sometimes people just need a trusted place where they can be heard. And if you can become that trusted place to hear what they need, then it helps to create that win-win. 

Jackie Mazur 
Exactly. Exactly.

Lauren Hong 
Oh my gosh, so fun. Thank you so much for sharing about what you've done. I admire the way you've built your firm and the courage you've been able to take to be able to do so, especially at such a young age to where you are today. It's proven in the success you've had. And I also admire that you've put together this whole formula. I think it's an interesting model for others to learn from, sort of an approach around building connections. 

Jackie Mazur
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that and I appreciate your time today and reaching out.

Lauren Hong
All right. Well thanks again, Jackie. We'll make sure to include all the notes below and links for folks and all of that. So thank you again.

Jackie Mazur 
Thank you.

We talked with Sarah about:

• Leveraging your personal connection to the industry to energize your work
• Finding a better fit client by being authentic in your marketing and actions
• Meeting clients at their emotional needs to help them unblock

About Sarah Carlson:

Having grown Fulcrum Financial Group over the last 26 years, founder Sarah Carlson is an established CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ professional, Chartered Life Underwriter®, and Chartered Financial Consultant®. In her recent book, Facing Financial Fears: 8 Steps to Financial Freedom for Women, Sarah steps up to empower others to move from fear to joy with money by helping them discover and love themselves. The end goal: to not only live wealthy but wellness wealthy in their own unique way.   

Featured Resources 

• Sarah’s LinkedIn Profile
• Fulcrum Financial Group Website
• Fulcrum Financial Group Facebook Page
• Facing Financial Fears Book on Amazon

Full Audio Transcript

Lauren Hong
Okay. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us.

Sarah Carlson 
Thank you so much for having me, Lauren. This is really exciting.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you taking the time. I know you've recently written a book, you've really leaned on a target market. You're doing all kinds of education training. And before I steal your thunder, I'll let you do a brief introduction and then we'll get into kind of the nitty gritty of how you've been able to really lean in and build these different tools for folks you work with. So I'll let you do the quick intro here.

Sarah Carlson
Thank you. So my name is Sarah Carlson. I founded Fulcrum Financial Group 25 years ago and we're a wealth management, financial planning practice in Spokane, Washington. We have clients all over the world; we really help people, one person at a time. We embrace diversity and inclusion, and it's just been such an amazing industry to really profoundly, positively affect clients in helping them live their best lives.

Lauren Hong
So I have to say as someone on the this side of marketing, we talk with a lot of different firms and one of the things that sometime is scary for folks, especially if they've been in business for a while, if they go, okay, we really wanna lean in on a particular target market but we don't. Right? I get that a lot. It's like, okay, we're gonna go after business owners but we still wanna be able to talk to retirees who are our current clients and how do we do this and everything. And you've done a really nice job. I mean, even as you shared in the introduction, working with diversity, equity, inclusion as a main focus, and you work with a lot with women. How have you comfortably leaned into that particular target and how did you decide to go about really leaning into that space?

Sarah Carlson
Yeah. I see there's such a demand for helping that market. I, myself, being a woman, I've gone through a lot of change and adversity in my life. And having so many people who are making very challenging decisions, having good advice and having access to people who have experience and perspective to help them make decisions, it was almost like I realized the benefit of being authentic and having your vibe attract your tribe. 

I’m also a mother of two sets of twins. They're young adults now. So after 25 years, it's definitely a different vantage point now. But, you know, there's just so much balancing, right? As women, we tend to prioritize everyone before ourselves, our children, our partners, our bosses, our clients. And we always think we're gonna have more time and more resources to take care of ourselves. And I realize I'm so passionate about money and financial situations because I feel like it's the one thing you can control with some game plan and working on your life and not in your life. And it's just a way for me to really provide value. So I've assembled a team of incredible problem-solvers and it's just so rewarding to help people navigate through life and see their life unfold. So it's not just about making good money decisions, it's also about emotionally feeling comfortable with the game plan and being able to pivot and make different choices. So it's not just about putting a plan in place, it's really about taking care of that plan.

Lauren Hong
Yeah. That makes sense. And I love what you said earlier too, about this idea of authenticity and passion, right? Because I feel like if you're authentic, if there’s an audience or a topic or something you care about, that kind of energy resonates. And like you said, it attracts like, right? So I think there's something to that. So going along that sort of vein, let's talk a little bit about the book. What led you to write the book? Was it over the years of building out the practice, was it really leaning in and working with different clients? What sort of got you to that point? Or what was the trigger to go, okay, I'm gonna do this big, hairy, audacious goal.

Sarah Carlson
Yeah, it was seeing the incredible magic unfold in our clients' lives and having people come back and just be so connected and appreciative of the work we were doing. And I wanted the ability to touch more. I had myself gone through a very contentious divorce, and I learned so much. And even though I was an expert in the money business, I learned so much more about those money decisions. So it started with me blogging and wanting to share that information, and I was blown away by the positive response I received from people I didn't know. I didn't even know they were reading my content. And so at that point I thought this is an opportunity for me to put something together to just touch more people, one reader at a time. So Facing Financial Fears: 8 Steps to Financial Freedom for Women was born.

It was a long process. Probably wrote three books and probably took longer than most writers would take but I really wanted it to be right. And the final product is something I'm very proud of, and I'm just so touched and blown away by how well it's received. So it's in soft cover, hard cover, Kindle, and just recently came out with an audible version. 

Lauren Hong 
Oh my goodness. What a learning curve to be able to put a piece like that together. How did you go about it? I mean, you're running this firm, working with the team and clients. Was this something you sort of do on the weekends, or how did you even find the time to be able to put together this kind of piece?

Sarah Carlson 
Yeah. Something I do to take care of myself is wake up early. And when my kids were young, I'd wake up before I needed to get them up to get them off to school. And so I still to this day, I take about at least an hour or two hours every day after I wake up to journal; I write and I exercise and I just light my brain on fire. I feel so blessed to be in this industry and just absolutely love it—it gives me energy so it doesn't feel like work at all. And I think that's what I would want for anybody in any profession, is to have something they're just connected to.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah. That's wonderful. And just to make a note about what you shared earlier, talking about the book. I know you talked about you're putting out content and you didn't even realize people were reading it, right? And I think something that's kind of funny too, is that you're putting out things and sometimes you get a like or you get a comment but people are sort of watching all these little things you're putting out in the world. And so I think it's not easy to then be able to ride that, and then to be able to provide something that's more valuable and authentic to folks to be able to provide even more value in the world. So you just never know, I guess in the end, you never know who's watching, right? 

Sarah Carlson 
Well, and to that point, I consider myself a real Girl Scout. I call myself a wing woman. Someone said, does that mean you're helping people date? I'm like, no, it means I have got your back and I have perspective and tools to make sure to help keep you safe in a situation. And that's where writing content and sharing ideas—and to that point—we're not gonna be everyone's cup of tea but that's where if you can share your ideas and market in a way, then your tribe will find you and you'll end up getting a better fit.

Lauren Hong 
Yeah. That's so true. So along kind of that vein, and you were talking about just your own self-care. I know you write a lot about this idea of mental wellness, right? And I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, and also the intersection of it with finances. And being able to make sure you're set up for success, knowing that's an intersection you touch a lot on. So do you mind sharing a little bit more and maybe even some takeaways for folks who are listening? 

Sarah Carlson 
Yeah. So I graduated from Yale with a degree in economics and a minor in psychology. And I always felt there was so much connection between the markets and how people are feeling. And I think it's probably been more so now than ever. I’ve always led with it's not just about being rich and having a lot of money in the bank; it's really about being wealthy, wellness wealthy, where everyone's goals and what helps build security and comfort is different. My goal is that our clients have enough money so they get to spend time and energy with the people they wanna spend it with, where they wanna spend it, for how long they wanna spend it. And it's different for everyone.

Lauren Hong 
Just out of curiosity, do you lean kind of in on that as you're doing your discovery with clients? Is there something unique in the way you do that, or in the way you maybe carry out your engagement with clients to make sure that passion, that mental wellness, the financial wellness, is leading forward versus just sort of a transaction or a plan, if you will?

Sarah Carlson 
I think so. We always give a complimentary consultation for folks to come in to see whether or not we're a good fit. And I have so many stories. I'm thinking about Brenda, who's an artist who not too long ago came in. She had incredible income, makes these incredible pieces of art for like $20,000 apiece, and yet she was in debt. She made a ton of money but she was perpetually in debt. And so through cash flow analysis and helping to figure out why there isn't more money to put aside, we realized she had this incredible expense with luxury goods. And what was so fascinating about that is she was a very reclusive person. She was single, middle aged, didn't have a boyfriend, she was kind of a homebody. And so in looking at it, I was like, what's with all these Gucci shoes?

Lauren Hong 
Yeah.

Sarah Carlson 

And then she confided in me. Well, you know, at the end of the day, after I pour myself into my work, I wanna reward myself, and so I buy myself these beautiful gifts that then arrive later. And what was fascinating to realize it was part of her self-soothing, for emotional reasons, that was keeping her in a hole in perpetual credit card debt. And so in short order, I asked her, what would ultimately be the dream you'd wanna have? And she said, I'd wanna own my own studio, my own building, build equity, and be able to put more money into financial independence, retirement. Which was interesting, because with the rent she was paying and the luxury goods, we were able to get her into a space. She now owns a building, and this is like literally like just a few months after we started working together. 

After buying the building, her overall cash flow is less, so much less than it was before. And she's even putting away the maximum for retirement. And so every time I see her, she's like, oh my gosh, you've changed my life. And she hasn't even been a client that long, but it's so rewarding to help meet her at her emotional needs and help her recognize aha, these beautiful clothes I'm never gonna wear and would have a difficult time even getting rid of were holding her back. What she thought was helping her was really hurting her. And it took me to give a different take on it.

Lauren Hong 
So sort of like what utility is that adding to the bottom line of passion, if you will, or the bottom line of sort of what you want for an end goal. So interesting. So it sounds like part of it is asking the right questions and the discovery and being able to kind of pull that out through the individual to be able to get to put the plan in place so it’s not just a plan for, how do I say, a plan for long term, but a plan for passion, a plan for what you want out of life too. What about with your employees? Do you have anything internally to where you're helping them with that financial wellness side of it as well?

Sarah Carlson
Yeah, definitely with my back office, it's LPLl Financial, and I certainly help with educational programs and they've been very supportive with the book. So that's been a wonderful way to give back. And then with my own team, we have processes and systems we work on problem-solving with every client. We all do different pieces of it. The young people coming in many times don't have the same level of experience our advisors do—between the three advisors on my team, we have over 75 years of experience, which is just crazy when I think of it. They are definitely able to work on the systems and participate in the process, which is probably the best financial education any young person could have.

Lauren Hong
Okay. That's great. And then I know from earlier that you're doing some training as well for others around this idea of financial education and mental health and all that. I'd love to hear a little bit more on that too, sort of an outpour of the book.

Sarah Carlson 
Right. So it's been wonderful. I haven't done a lot to market the book. It made the bestsellers on Amazon and has gained traction in the financial industry. So I've had some large wirehouses and in the independent space I've had the opportunity to share my philosophies and different ideas to help their employees get a handle on their financial life. Because it doesn't have to be a big step to make an important difference in your life. And it's not just about being financially secure and getting to your goals. It's really about getting to the goals if you're a parent, your parenting plan, your relationship goals, your spiritual goals. It's really about wholeness, financial fullness.

Lauren Hong 
Yep. And that’s easier said than done, right? So I'd love to hear if you were just sort of to give an elevator pitch or a high level of your philosophy around it too, just sort of a recap for folks that are listening. 

Sarah Carlson
Well, I believe the way to help a client go from fear to joy with their money through some curious steps is to help them find themselves. So my book is really about financial empowerment. It's really about helping the reader discover and appreciate and develop self-love. It's about getting okay with yourself. I love the acronym, that book, Grit. They talk about that grit is the combination of passion and perseverance. And I think every advisor out there most likely probably has that. But I think there's also another opportunity with the definition of grit and using grit as an acronym—get right in there—meaning you have to feel good inside to really be able to launch and live the life you want, you know? Being okay with what's going on.

Lauren Hong
Yeah, absolutely. I feel one of the biggest gifts you can give yourself is to be able to answer those tough questions too—sometimes for better or worse—and some folks are able to answer and some just aren't. And so if this book can be able to help tease that out of them, I think there's a lot of beauty in that as well, which probably I would assume is your job if someone comes to you. I dunno if it makes it easier, but with that clarity, the idea of what north is, you can get to that better outcome, if you will. So that's so wonderful. Well, anything else you wanna share too around the book or your philosophy or approach to what you're doing? Just any closing thoughts?

Sarah Carlson
Well, I want to share with every advisor and consumer out there that you're worth it, you are worth prioritizing and creating some time and space. I mean, the one thing you can't create more of is time and energy. And so by dedicating a slice for yourself, you are going to be just so much better off, you're gonna be a better mother, you're gonna be a better partner, you're gonna be a better employee and advisor. So I really want to encourage people to prioritize themselves and work on themselves and not get caught up in the fear of missing out. 

Lauren Hong
Yep. Absolutely. It's so true. There's a lot of shiny objects out there in the world, right? So being able to be true to self is much harder, like I said, easier said than done. So thank you again for your time for sharing. I think not only for being able to share your story about where you've gotten to with the firm but also just for taking the time to be able to put together a piece like this and be able to share that with the world so others, if it's your clients, if it's prospects, if it's just folks who run into it, can really lean into those years of experience, as you've been able to, I'm sure, see behind the curtain with so many people's lives, which I'm sure would better equip you to be able to ask those tough questions. But then you're not just sharing that among those folks who are clients. I think it sounds like the book is really a gift you're giving to the world to be able to help others who are ready to sort of tease that out and lean into it. They have a template, if you will, to do that. So thank you for your time to put that together and for sharing with us today too.

Sarah Carlson
Oh, thank you so much, Lauren. And the services you provide can help us as advisors make a meaningful impact in getting that information out. We have a lot of information to share and having a good strategy, like you help folks develop, it's really, really important. So thank you for the work you do.

Lauren Hong
Oh, absolutely. Well, we'll make sure to include links as well to your website and book and other resources and we'll go from there.

Sarah Carlson 
Awesome. Thank you.

Lauren Hong 
Great. Thanks.

We’re excited to announce that Olivia Tobolewski has moved into the role of marketing implementation specialist on the Out & About team! Her amazing energy and can-do spirit supports the ongoing success of our clients. 

In her new role, Olivia will work on a variety of projects to support marketing strategies using data, analytics, and technology and continue helping clients tell their brand story through visual layouts and digital graphics. She will use her extensive experience and deep skill set to support and improve future campaigns, websites, and so much more. 

We’re thrilled to have Olivia on the team and look forward to watching her continue to shine bright. Congratulations, Olivia!